Thoughts on "The A to Z of trading career - musings of a professional trader !!"

madank

Market participant
#81
As we talked about 'risk of ruin', i would like to share a risk of ruin calculator here. Please punch in your accuracy, R:R, MM approach and financial ruin number (the max DD at which you will throw in the towel). It will give the probability of your risk of ruin. It was given to me by my friend and i do not know the author of this document.

Story for the day:

John's father was a broker in ML and he shared a good story to John about how businessmen think in difficult situations. It is always wise to think on how to come out of a situation with minimal damage (rather than getting bogged down by it)

Here the story: He had a large client who was wealthy, stubborn, gutsy and would not get out of his oats position because he felt they were too cheap. He had two million bushels of oats at $1.5/bushel and he did not get out by the contract expiry(and conseuently, took delivery). So, he was no longer on margin and had put $3 million to take delivery. So he asked John's dad to be on a lookout for a good bid to sell the oats in the cash market, but none of the big boys(neither General Mills nor Quaker Oats) seemed interested. The markets traded in consolidation for a few months.

Fast forward few more months..There was a big drought that happened in US in 1988 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1988–89_North_American_drought). Due to this drought, the oat crops in Dakotas(both North and South), Wyoming, Minnesota and Wisconsin were devestated. The futures traded upto $4 per bushel and one of the large processors gave a call to John's dad about buying oats. So, he called his client to see if he's willing to sell 2 million bushels for $4 per bushel but the client refused. He quoted $4.4 per bushel(remember, it is 40 cents more than the futures price) and it was a take it or leave it offer. The processor guy accepted it right away and paid $8.8 million to this client. The client cleared a cool 5.4 million dollars as profit.

When John's dad later asked the processor on why he was so quick to buy the oats at record high prices, he told this to him - ' I had the choice of closing down the mill and putting 300 people out of work because i dint have any oats to make oatmeal, or pay the price and jack up the price of 1 box of oats by 10 cents. What you would have done?" Fair question.

Long story short, this is how businessmen think in any situation - keeping the risks at bay and taking control of the situation. Are we traders doing the same while trading? Its an importaint point to ponder :)
 

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#82
The excel did not work at my end (tried it with Open Office)
(Not trying again with MS Office as not really a fan of pirated copies) . . .

So looked for online versions for the similar calculator
here is what it gives me for a swing system . . .

Risk_Of_Ruin.png


RoR showed was zero with default 100 turns so upped it to 1000


Happy :)
 

madank

Market participant
#83
The excel did not work at my end (tried it with Open Office)
(Not trying again with MS Office as not really a fan of pirated copies) . . .

So looked for online versions for the similar calculator
here is what it gives me for a swing system . . .

View attachment 23312

RoR showed was zero with default 100 turns so upped it to 1000


Happy :)
Hi @Happy_Singh ,

Glad to know that you inserted your parameters and checked it. You are risking 7.5% per trade? Am i reading it right? With a 50 pct system, there is a possibility of hitting 7-10 losses in a row atleast every 70 trades.So, thought something was wrong and inserted your parameters in the spreadsheet i shared.

There is a stark difference between the calc you posted and the calc in the excel sheet i shared. Thought someone would point that out to you but thats ok.

Let me paste a screenshot with the parameters used. As expected, your RoR was too high because of the possibility of 7-10 losses in a row. This is just FYI.

In any case, 7.5% risk per trade is too high for a 50 percent system. Sooner or later, the series of losses might occur. Please plan your trades accordingly.

Happy_Singh-RoR-Calc.png
 
#84
Thanks Madan for putting in efforts to run my numbers on the excel

You are right, something is amiss there . . .

I did re-run the test on the same page have referred above and also a couple of more similar calculators

Have retained the URLs of the calculators in the images so others also can try them

RR02.png


RR01.png


RR03.png


Will write in detail after the markets . . .

Thanks & Regards
Happy :)
 
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#85
Hi again

About Risk on the swing system

I consider it to be between 5 to 10% of the capital deployed so put 7.5% for calculation
As it being a swing system, have to carry the position overnight . . .
and we really do not know where it will open the next day . . .

As far as risk is concerned i stopped classifying as Positional/Swing etc, its either Intraday or Overnight.
During Intraday the system would typically offer SL under 2% of Capital Deployed,
here the only uncertainty is the amount of slippage one gets . . .
but holding position over night all the SL calculations we make are up for a toss

Now coming back to the discussion on Risk of ruin

Seems like the variance from different models is from 0.05% to 93%
which is so wide apart to be really of any use :)

But anyway looking at the extreme 93% that the excel you shared throws up
I did some sample runs on a simple spread sheet,
getting some quite interesting insight in the process . . .

Thanks for bringing up this topic.

Happy :)
 
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#86
Now some questions.

If we assume on a 50% system we get a streak of 10 straight losing trades,
in this case do we also assume that all the 10 trades with strike out a 7.5% loss
and not only that but how come the very first 10 trades we take with the system will be losing one . . .

anyway here are some scenario i have considered

RR04.png


Once again thanks for your two threads.

Happy :)
 

madank

Market participant
#87
Now some questions.

If we assume on a 50% system we get a streak of 10 straight losing trades,
in this case do we also assume that all the 10 trades with strike out a 7.5% loss
and not only that but how come the very first 10 trades we take with the system will be losing one . . .

anyway here are some scenario i have considered

View attachment 23333

Once again thanks for your two threads.

Happy :)
@Happy_Singh,

Yes - the probability of hitting losses in the 1st 10 trades is very minimal but DD is always considered from peak to trough. So, this Risk of Ruin of 50% means that we hit the DD of 50% from equity high.

So, lets say after 100 trades, we run up our capital from 1 to 1.5 crores and then our series of losses hit. Then, we would go to 75 lacs or lesser and that would enable the trader to stop his sytem as his 50% Risk of Ruin has been hit(assuming he has considered RoR as 50%).

So in your scenario, with the iteration of 100oo trades in Monte carlo Simulation, it is a given that this 50% DD(peak to trough..not necessarily the initial capital) will get hit for a 50% accuracy system with 7.5% risk/trade. Are you getting the point? Keyword is 'peak to trough'. We might think that the initial capital is 1 crore and i have made a run up to 3 crores. But when we hit a DD that reduces our capital back to 1.5 crores, it would be a big hit on our trading psyche too (even though we are 50 lacs above our initial trading capital) and the next mouseclick will look like an herculean task.

Having said this, if one keeps on reducing the risk/trade as trades go by, the RoR will keep on reducing.

Hope you see the point !!
 
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Tlahuicole

Well-Known Member
#90
Madank, read your post, very impressive write up. I loved this quote from your write up " what feels good in the short term, is most likely counter-productive in the long term".

A quote similar to this was an eye opener for me which helped me not to take trades that are out of the rule book even though it was mentioned in a different context, however the market conditions suggest, which in turn helped me to follow my trading system completely leading me to become consistently profitable trader.

I wanted to share the below quote,

"This desire to be right and to look good can have an adverse effect, in that breaking out of the comfort zone and
achieving their full potential can be hampered by the fear of failure. This strong P&L focus can also lead to the trader breaking their strategy in an attempt to make money in other ways, focussing on short-term profits rather than longterm gain. Confidence can come and go, as P&L peaks and troughs."

Source: High Performance Trading by Steve Ward.
 

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