Thoughts on "The A to Z of trading career - musings of a professional trader !!"

[niftyoption]

@niftyoption - 5 and 11 are trying to predict the future. Very tough to do that.Could you please explain more about 6 and 14?

BTW, kindly refrain from pasting stuff from internet...Wanted to keep this thread for discussions coming out of our thought process(based on our understanding of things). For eg: Please read posts of ncube, xray and other folks..very nice discussion.

Hope you understand !!

@madank .. my main intention is not criticize any person and motivate Traders and help others only .... dont take it as personally ....
my posts are only for motivating traders .... From Internet or from any book not a important issue ... is it truth or not , is the main issue ....
in my view all are learning some thing from Internet source .... now also we discussing through Internet .... There is nothing wrong regarding Internet stuff ... Truth is the correct parameter .....
Demand and supply topic already discussed in our forum and great contributions from our senior members please search that threads you will know about that .....
Draw down means any time system given continuous losses

 

[HEM]

@niftyoption - 5 and 11 are trying to predict the future. Very tough to do that.Could you please explain more about 6 and 14?

BTW, kindly refrain from pasting stuff from internet...Wanted to keep this thread for discussions coming out of our thought process(based on our understanding of things). For eg: Please read posts of ncube, xray and other folks..very nice discussion.

Hope you understand !!

@madank .. my main intention is not criticize any person and motivate Traders and help others only .... dont take it as personally ....
my posts are only for motivating traders .... From Internet or from any book not a important issue ... is it truth or not , is the main issue ....
in my view all are learning some thing from Internet source .... now also we discussing through Internet .... There is nothing wrong regarding Internet stuff ... Truth is the correct parameter .....
Demand and supply topic already discussed in our forum and great contributions from our senior members please search that threads you will know about that .....
Draw down means any time system given continuous losses

Dear niftyoption,

Madan is saying right.....please don't disrupt the flow of this thread and post motivational related stuff elsewhere.....because this thread is realeted to Madan's Main thread ( " The A to Z of trading career - musings of a professional trader !! " from Members Discussion Forums ).


HEM

 

[niftyoption]

Dear niftyoption,

Madan is saying right.....please don't disrupt the flow of this thread and post motivation related stuff elsewhere.....because this thread is realeted from Madan's Main thread ( " The A to Z of trading career - musings of a professional trader !! " from Members Discussion Forums ).


HEM

ok , Dear HEM ,

i think i am not interrupting any flow ..... like other members i also posted in this thread with good intention ... but you people think it is disturbance in flow , so i will not post in this thread in future .... Moderator ST Da i am requesting you please delete my posts in this thread .....
Thank You Very Much ....
ALL THE BEST

 

[madank]

Most importantly with in the method entry style with respective to qty you trade (all in or add on) people won’t concentrate on this many will say add on is best,empirically it failed only important factor is your risk factor which you are going to take with respect to trade , even price action has be back tested, many think it cannot be.

Chaos in one time frame is just order in another ,price shocks are common in swing/positional these are the points many neglect and they go on there ways to screw there system to avoid them

Posting trades in forum I don’t think it will effect the method or mind ,unless he/she wants to post fake trades hide/proof some thing in the name of discretionary style, In the real world of professional trading ,there is one system which is mechanical,when we enjoy the process of trading and follow a method ,rather then concentrating on the MTM,go on with this process as driving a car ( we cannot say discretionary in driving ,there is only one way ) it is a mechanical way..in short enjoying the present movement of trading on a sytem which has positive expectancy is called professional trading IMO !!!

Yes - allin/allout vs scaling-in/scaling out is a never ending debate. But statistically, the former is better in terms of risk adjusted returns. Latter is soothing to the mind (relatively)

I do strongly believe that posting trades in online forums screw up the thought process of the trader. Will try to substantiate with reasons. Let me address two things that we see - 1. Posting their trades based on the trading plan (whether they trade it or just posting it without trading it real time, is immaterial) and 2. Predicting where the market is gonna go or predicting some price points.

This is gonna be a long post.

Point # 1 - posting their trades based on the trading plan (whether they trade it or just posting without trading them is immaterial)

Most of the times, we post trades to 'feel good' about ourselves(to create that sense of belonging) or to satisfy our 'need to be right'. The desire to focus on being right instead of making money is a function of the individual's ego, and to be successful you must trade without ego at all costs. Ego leads to equating the trader's net worth with his self-worth, which results in the desire to take winners too quickly and sit on losers in often-misguided hopes of exiting at a breakeven. Trading results are often a mirror for where you are in your life. If you feel any sort of conflict internally with making money(related to self esteem) or feel the need to be perfect in everything you do, you will experience cognitive dissonance (mismatch, that is) as you trade.

This means that your brain will be insisting that you cannot exit a trade at a loss because it ruins your self-image of perfection (and it also affects our portrayed image in the online forums) Or if you grew up and feel guilty about having money, your mind and ego will find a way to give up gains and take losses in the markets. The ego's need to protect its version of the self must be let go in order to rid ourselves of the potential for self-sabotage. Additionally, because we are raised in a highly competitive culture, the perception of a contest or competition will also bring out your ego's desire to win and beat others.

So, we are better off just executing our plan discreetly than posting trades frivolously online. It can serve well initially (as a diary or for 'feeling good' purpose )- but this has to stop somewhere to move onto the next level for the above-mentioned reasons.

2. Predicting where the market is gonna go or predicting some price points.

Predicting involves the ego. I think this or I think that. The X will go up to wherever then down to wherever else before bouncing and doing thus and so. Once one steps onto this particular path, he puts himself into the position of being right or wrong, and that's where an enormous number of beginner's problems begin.

The desire to know what's going to happen next is for the vast majority of people a need, and not just in the trading arena. But in the markets, it is absolute death, whether trading technically or fundamentally. One doesn't learn how to let all of that go in a weekend seminar or in online forums/social media, but it's essential to long-term success.

As someone said "Pride of opinion has been responsible for the downfall of more men in Wall street than anything else". Am not putting down 'prediction' as we kinda predict (when we enter long or short) whenever we enter a trade. We dont enter longs thinking that the market is gonna go south. But, the real question is are we 'fortune-telling' or executing our plan (if A happens, i will do 1..if B happens, i will do 2).

Self-esteem is another very powerful underlying factor which will be there throughout.This is basically how you feel about yourself. How do you perceive your skills and knowledge as a trader? How sure of yourself and particularly of your judgment you are? How tempted do you feel to doubt your thoughts and to reconsider your actions? Do you take too long to make a move, only to end up being too late? Your self-esteem is going to be there practically just like an underlying foundation for your decisions in the trading world. And if you do not manage to consider its presence, and its effects, you might easily end up making erroneous decisions often.

Overcoming self-esteem issues is critical if you want to be able to trade successfully. Subconsciously we estimate ourselves, by evaluating our personality, our skills and capabilities – and we may either over estimate ourselves or under estimate ourselves. This is what self-esteem is all about. As a result of this evaluation of oneself, one develops an attitude towards oneself. Hence a balanced self esteem is key if one wants to trade successfully. It is a long subject..

Absolutely !! Our net-worth can never exceed our self-esteem. A person seldom reaches levels of achievement beyond his self-image limitations.

While it is true that self-doubt (low self-esteem)and a lack of self-confidence can interfere with trading decisions, it is equally true that overconfidence and an unrealistic assessment of one's skills can lead to ruin. Research in behavioral finance suggests that, if you show traders few charts generated by random number sequences, they will--as a whole--be more inclined to overestimate than underestimate their prowess at divining future market movements (again, this proves that people love to predict and if it comes out right, they 'feel good'). And those with the greatest overestimation will be most susceptible to trading losses.

Lot of pointers are intertwined with each other in this post but hope you guys get the gist !!

 

[madank]

ok , Dear HEM ,

i think i am not interrupting any flow ..... like other members i also posted in this thread with good intention ... but you people think it is disturbance in flow , so i will not post in this thread in future .... Moderator ST Da i am requesting you please delete my posts in this thread .....
Thank You Very Much ....
ALL THE BEST

@niftyoption - please do post your thoughts and views. Would greatly appreciate that. Never a believer of stifling people's thoughts and opinions.

I was just requesting you to refrain from posting motivational stuff from online. They are good but we are looking for discussions about what we think on various topics of trading.

I would urge you to post your views and looking forward to your posts in this thread in the future.

 

[HEM]

ok , Dear HEM ,

i think i am not interrupting any flow ..... like other members i also posted in this thread with good intention ... but you people think it is disturbance in flow , so i will not post in this thread in future .... Moderator ST Da i am requesting you please delete my posts in this thread .....
Thank You Very Much ....
ALL THE BEST

Dear niftyoption,

Please Don't take things in wrong perspective and my post is not to hurt you by any mean..... so please cool and Relax. Here if you post and participate in Thread releted stuff then that will be good.....


HEM

 

[XRAY27]

Yes - allin/allout vs scaling-in/scaling out is a never ending debate. But statistically, the former is better in terms of risk adjusted returns. Latter is soothing to the mind (relatively)

I do strongly believe that posting trades in online forums screw up the thought process of the trader. Will try to substantiate with reasons. Let me address two things that we see - 1. Posting their trades based on the trading plan (whether they trade it or just posting it without trading it real time, is immaterial) and 2. Predicting where the market is gonna go or predicting some price points.

This is gonna be a long post.

Point # 1 - posting their trades based on the trading plan (whether they trade it or just posting without trading them is immaterial)

Most of the times, we post trades to 'feel good' about ourselves(to create that sense of belonging) or to satisfy our 'need to be right'. The desire to focus on being right instead of making money is a function of the individual's ego, and to be successful you must trade without ego at all costs. Ego leads to equating the trader's net worth with his self-worth, which results in the desire to take winners too quickly and sit on losers in often-misguided hopes of exiting at a breakeven. Trading results are often a mirror for where you are in your life. If you feel any sort of conflict internally with making money(related to self esteem) or feel the need to be perfect in everything you do, you will experience cognitive dissonance (mismatch, that is) as you trade.

This means that your brain will be insisting that you cannot exit a trade at a loss because it ruins your self-image of perfection (and it also affects our portrayed image in the online forums) Or if you grew up and feel guilty about having money, your mind and ego will find a way to give up gains and take losses in the markets. The ego's need to protect its version of the self must be let go in order to rid ourselves of the potential for self-sabotage. Additionally, because we are raised in a highly competitive culture, the perception of a contest or competition will also bring out your ego's desire to win and beat others.

So, we are better off just executing our plan discreetly than posting trades frivolously online. It can serve well initially (as a diary or for 'feeling good' purpose )- but this has to stop somewhere to move onto the next level for the above-mentioned reasons.

Well, Many members of this forum are not using this for any "feel good" factors ,including me..many want to learn from there mistakes ,if you don't post any thing who will correct you, ??? just go through Time pass dairy (one of the moderator ) manoj borle dairy, lonewolf,vijkris,or my journey of TA thread ...they are the true reflections ,check them ,non tried to show off or proof any thing!!!

Yes !!! i do agree that there are people who want to project them selfs as "super humans"... this is part and parcel of any forum or society ...

Ego is ‘I am’. Whatever you believe to be ‘I am’. You are egoistic. ‘I am Great’ is Ego, and ‘I am nobody’ is also Ego.
Whenever you use ‘I am’, that becomes a statement of Ego. But we think that when someone talks big about himself or someone holds big notions about himself only then he is displaying Ego. No!

If someone thinks that I have been a victim all my life, this is great Ego. If someone thinks that I am so humble, this again is Ego. If someone thinks that I am a coward, this again is Ego, because in all these sentences there is something common. What is that? ‘I am.’ And all these ‘I am‘ notions constitute Ego because the object attached to them is external. Were you born with cowardice? No! You got it from somewhere, along the way. As if you are on a journey and you keep picking things from somewhere. No, that stuff is not you. You have picked it up. So anything you attach to ‘I am’ will necessarily be the statement of Ego. We never say a pure ‘I am’, we say ‘I am this’ and ‘I am that.’

Whenever I hold a notion about myself, the notion itself is Ego. Whenever I hold an idea about myself, that idea is Ego. it will be turning out to be a philosophical !!!

Bottomline :when intention is clear ,posting of trades will not effect mind,or method !!!

 

[travi]

Well, Many members of this forum are not using this for any "feel good" factors ,including me..many want to learn from there mistakes ,if you don't post any thing who will correct you, ??? just go through Time pass dairy (one of the moderator ) manoj borle dairy, lonewolf,vijkris,or my journey of TA thread ...they are the true reflections ,check them ,non tried to show off or proof any thing!!!

Yes !!! i do agree that there are people who want to project them selfs as "super humans"... this is part and parcel of any forum or society ...

Ego is ‘I am’. Whatever you believe to be ‘I am’. You are egoistic. ‘I am Great’ is Ego, and ‘I am nobody’ is also Ego.
Whenever you use ‘I am’, that becomes a statement of Ego. But we think that when someone talks big about himself or someone holds big notions about himself only then he is displaying Ego. No!

If someone thinks that I have been a victim all my life, this is great Ego. If someone thinks that I am so humble, this again is Ego. If someone thinks that I am a coward, this again is Ego, because in all these sentences there is something common. What is that? ‘I am.’ And all these ‘I am‘ notions constitute Ego because the object attached to them is external. Were you born with cowardice? No! You got it from somewhere, along the way. As if you are on a journey and you keep picking things from somewhere. No, that stuff is not you. You have picked it up. So anything you attach to ‘I am’ will necessarily be the statement of Ego. We never say a pure ‘I am’, we say ‘I am this’ and ‘I am that.’

Whenever I hold a notion about myself, the notion itself is Ego. Whenever I hold an idea about myself, that idea is Ego. it will be turning out to be a philosophical !!!

Bottomline :when intention is clear ,posting of trades will not effect mind,or method !!!

Very True XRayji, this is definitely a scenario. We used to post live trades quite often and then that thread just got buried

From what I can say, is a clear distinction of the learners and the other kind is the type of reflection on the outcome of the trades.
Learners analyze each trade equally and post whether win or even when SLs are hit while the other kind will pretend as if the trade was never on and only the winning trades would be highlighted.
Winning trader shouldn't mock/highlight the losing trader & so on.

 

[madank]

Well, Many members of this forum are not using this for any "feel good" factors ,including me..many want to learn from there mistakes ,if you don't post any thing who will correct you, ??? just go through Time pass dairy (one of the moderator ) manoj borle dairy, lonewolf,vijkris,or my journey of TA thread ...they are the true reflections ,check them ,non tried to show off or proof any thing!!!

Yes !!! i do agree that there are people who want to project them selfs as "super humans"... this is part and parcel of any forum or society ...

Ego is ‘I am’. Whatever you believe to be ‘I am’. You are egoistic. ‘I am Great’ is Ego, and ‘I am nobody’ is also Ego.
Whenever you use ‘I am’, that becomes a statement of Ego. But we think that when someone talks big about himself or someone holds big notions about himself only then he is displaying Ego. No!

If someone thinks that I have been a victim all my life, this is great Ego. If someone thinks that I am so humble, this again is Ego. If someone thinks that I am a coward, this again is Ego, because in all these sentences there is something common. What is that? ‘I am.’ And all these ‘I am‘ notions constitute Ego because the object attached to them is external. Were you born with cowardice? No! You got it from somewhere, along the way. As if you are on a journey and you keep picking things from somewhere. No, that stuff is not you. You have picked it up. So anything you attach to ‘I am’ will necessarily be the statement of Ego. We never say a pure ‘I am’, we say ‘I am this’ and ‘I am that.’

Whenever I hold a notion about myself, the notion itself is Ego. Whenever I hold an idea about myself, that idea is Ego. it will be turning out to be a philosophical !!!

Bottomline :when intention is clear ,posting of trades will not effect mind,or method !!!

Nice post!!

Every human has an ego, some let it run riot (dont mean anybody here) and others control it in relative degrees, which will vary from situation to situation. But I really don't buy this "search for the holy grail of eliminating the ego 100%" for 2 reasons -

a) I don't think that it's possible
b) I don't think that it's necessarily desirable

If that is the "Holy Grail" of trading, then I'm sure it can be achieved by correctly programming a computer to trade for you and I would be willing to bet that it's success rate would not beat a talented and successful individual trader

Long story short, ego is a subjective word but it boils down to what we do with it. Was just trying to highlight the way we traders use it to our own peril !!

 

[Smart_trade]

I am not sure posting of trade logs ( and profit M to M ) is for a noble intention of learning from their mistakes ...except in few cases where profits and lossess both are truthfully reported in the form of trade diary.

Smart_trade