Is Technical Analysis a farce

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anuragmunjal

Well-Known Member
#51
'Everybody speaks based on his experience. I have been fortunate to come in contact with 2 great traders, both TA based, successful and they gave me everything they knew ( the exact methods which they traded). Both these gentlemen had totally different methodologies.....so I had put my views...others may have different experience and that is the reason they have their views.When great traders teach, they expect the students to put in lot of efforts...nothing is given readymade, just put the values and start making money type. Teaching real trading on real methods in realtime is being done even now in a few forums....find out yourself. Dont PM me...I will not give any clue even indirectly as I am strongly against such practices....'

hi ST
Thnx for the inputs,I think I know the forum that you are speaking of. as I said earlier, my idea of going to forums is not to learn any new trading system. my endeavour is only to learn the thought process of traders whose posts I consider 'intelligent'. I must say here that I found your approach towards trading to be very simple & practicle and I have benifitted a great deal from your posts.
just to add here I have a few propiretory trading systems working for me and I am totally satisfied with their results.

regards

Anurag
 

onlinegtrash

Well-Known Member
#52
wow ! great thread. My respect to all who have shared their thoughts & experience.

Me being a starter in trading & engineer at heart, have few thoughts borrowed from Nassim Taleb, a wonderful author and things I ve read !

----
a) Even randomly generated geometric brownian price movements tend to form all the TA signals, a TA guru can keep on predicting and patting himself but the engine is 'random' !!!!

So its no way an assurance from TA, given the past price history future can be predicted as it can be done in physics based on laws of cause-effect !


b) silent evidence problem: one of the trader published all his TA signals that was winning, but I bet some one can publish 10 times more failed TA signals, these failed TA signals should be also counted if TA has to be judged for its usefulness !

c) predicting future is hard problem. in physics there is something called 3 body problem, where adding a third body to the equation astronomically makes the calculation complex to predict the position of the bodies ( calculations include their mass, gravity, momentum, force, direction etc etc).

stock market is way more complex than 3 body problem of physics. so
its just too 'hard' or NOT possible to crank out TA solutions that work, when you spend your time in beach :rofl:

d) there is a concept called 'computational irreducibility' i.e you just can't crank an equation to predict 30 steps ahead from now given current state of the system. The system has to go thru all the steps and we have to wait till 30 th step to see what actually happens. (this idea is from Stephen Wolfram).

climatic simulations, stock market all such things have their 'non computationally reducible' part in them ! SO guys, you just don't have a magic solution or hidden secret weapon from expert traders etc etc. Given a million traders, some one will make the top list and you guys are going to wonder about his secret weapon, but there isn't any ! i.e Buffet need not be ultra smart, given million traders to start with, someone like Buffet with luck playing crucial role to emerge as big winner is NOT that surprising at all !

e) inherent randomness: There is inherent randomness, in computationally irreducible systems i.e you can generate random numbers/events which has nothing to do with PAST state of the system ! (again from Stephen Wolfram)

==========

SO don't take TA so seriously guys, read Nassim Talebs, "fooled by randomness" and "black swan"

I don't think TA is totally hopeless, they can reveal the *current* trend,
the shorter time frame the better, but TA seems to fail to capture any 'black swans' i.e high impact low probable events.

TA seems to be helpful to react rather than predict.

so far what I have understood is : use TA to react, remember black swans can ruin any TA predictions so *ALWAYS* use stop-loss protection, try exposing yourself to 'white swans' (for guys dealing with options).

=====

having said the above, senior guys should have spotted out, am book-smart guy with near to NULL experience in real trading world, so I will be glade to correct my views :)

enjoy !
 
#53
'Everybody speaks based on his experience. I have been fortunate to come in contact with 2 great traders, both TA based, successful and they gave me everything they knew ( the exact methods which they traded). Both these gentlemen had totally different methodologies.....so I had put my views...others may have different experience and that is the reason they have their views.When great traders teach, they expect the students to put in lot of efforts...nothing is given readymade, just put the values and start making money type. Teaching real trading on real methods in realtime is being done even now in a few forums....find out yourself. Dont PM me...I will not give any clue even indirectly as I am strongly against such practices....'

hi ST
Thnx for the inputs,I think I know the forum that you are speaking of. as I said earlier, my idea of going to forums is not to learn any new trading system. my endeavour is only to learn the thought process of traders whose posts I consider 'intelligent'. I must say here that I found your approach towards trading to be very simple & practicle and I have benifitted a great deal from your posts.
just to add here I have a few propiretory trading systems working for me and I am totally satisfied with their results.

regards

Anurag
Thanks for the kind words Anurag. I too consider you as one of the finest traders in this forum ...

Best wishes,

Smart_trade
 

anuragmunjal

Well-Known Member
#54
Thanks Anurag.

Any insight you bring would be beneficial to all. So, please do write about what you were going to write earlier. Always willing to learn more.

Tc


hi Raunak
money can be made in the markets just by understanding the behaviour of the masses who trade the markets. to show this I am narrating a true story which I have seen with my own eyes over the years.
the system used for trading is what we today know as BTST. this system was discoverd by a friend of mine
some 15-16 yrs. back (accidently) . this guy became a multi millioniare.
there was no technical or fundamental analysis used, just behavarioul analysis of the crowds.
coming to the 'accident', this was the time when nse had weekly settlement (not daily as it is today) the first day of the settlement used to be wednesday and the last day was tuesday.
on a particular tuesday this friend of mine was long (bought) reliance and ITC, he was in a loss and was waiting till the last minute for the prices to improve so that he could sell his shares. at around 3.15 pm the broker's terminal suddenly crashed and he could not square off his position. there was no other option but to pick up the delivery. in those days brokers normally did not give finance, hence he had to arrange for funds with great difficulty. the next day the shares opened around 3-4% above the previous day's close and he was saved frm the loss that he would have suffered on the previous day.
as the saying goes" winners dont do different things, they just do things differently". he could not comprehend as to why most of the stocks opened 3-4% above the previous close. this set him thinking and he reached the conclusion that since wednesday was the first day of the settlement, anybody buying anytime between wednesday and tuesday does not have to give the payment (as is the case with intraday trades these days, u do not have to give the payment if u square off before the close), but anybody not squaring off on tuesday would have to give the full payment for delivery.
he realized the following points of crowd behaviour:

1. most of the people speculate frm the long side, ie. they buy first and sell later.
2. most of the people dont want to pick up delivery, they want to speculate with little or no money.
3. most of the people do not cut their losses, they wait till the last moment to square off. hence there is a big sellig pressure on the close on tuesday.

now he did just the opposite. he arranged some funds and every week he would buy (normally the most liquid and investor fancied stocks) between 3.20- 3.30 pm on tuesday
and sell them off between 10- 10.15 on wednesday morning, irrespective of whether they opened above or lower frm his price. due to the crowd tendency of not wanting to put in the money, normally tuesday closings were depressed and wednesday mornings were euphoric because the same people who had sold off on tuesday would be ready to buy back on wednesday mornings as they would now get a full week without having to pay fr delivery.
he started getting a 10-15% return on a monthly basis and he steadily raised his amounts. this kind of return if compounded properly can do wonders and it did fr him.

then came the daily settlement and for sometime it seemed that this system would not work, but big brokers like india bulls and india infoline came to the rescue . they started giving their clients 7-8 times limits in intraday. all these trades were squred off forcefully by the brokers between 3- 3.15 pm, so this friend of mine made a portofoilo of liquid investor fancied shres of diff. sectors and the modus operendi remained the same. people come & buy stocks 7-8 times of the amount of money that they have and are forced to sell off @ whatever rate prevailing @ 3.15, hence he started buying between 3.15 and 3.30 and selling of next morning bet. 10 & 10.15. the same idiots would come and buy 8 times of their capital inthe morning. this way one delivery that he picked up would remain with him for many days, till the time the stock is showing upwards movement. the stt etc. for delivery was paid only twice. rest of the days it became just an intraday transaction , sold in the morning & squared off in the evening.
admittedly there are a few days in bet. when the market opens lower, the key is to book the loss on these particular days but more often than not, becos of the greed of the people to take up positions 8-10 times of their capital, the mornings open generally better than the previous close, becos the the overnight risk is eliminated and people get 8-10 times exposure again for the whole day.
there have been 2 major makt. falls in this period, yes he lost 10-20% in a single day a few times but made a return of over 100% in the preceding few months of the fall.and after the fall, the key is to lye low till the mkt. stabalizes and then reennter.
there are many other facets to this which are beyond the scope of this post. I have just tried to give an insight of the methodology of a very successful trader. there is no TA, no FA, just the behavior study of the masses and benefitting frm it.
although the market dynamics have changed a lot since which are again beyond the scope of this post, just to try it out,anybody can make a portfolio of any 8-10 liquid fast moving cash shares of his choice (shares that are not in f&o) and backtest it on the past six month or one yr data. what would have happened if he would have bought blindly half of his position @ 3.15 and the rest @ 3.25 everyday, and sold off the same between 9.00 and 9.15 the next morning. this can be checked on shres of ur choice. remember u keep the same stocks till the the time they are moving , so u pay the delivery commission & stt only while buying and selling once and everyday trade is treated as an itraday squareoff, sold in the morning and bought back in the afternnoon.


regards

Anurag
 
#56
hi Raunak
money can be made in the markets just by understanding the behaviour of the masses who trade the markets. to show this I am narrating a true story which I have seen with my own eyes over the years.
the system used for trading is what we today know as BTST. this system was discoverd by a friend of mine
some 15-16 yrs. back (accidently) . this guy became a multi millioniare.
there was no technical or fundamental analysis used, just behavarioul analysis of the crowds.
coming to the 'accident', this was the time when nse had weekly settlement (not daily as it is today) the first day of the settlement used to be wednesday and the last day was tuesday.
on a particular tuesday this friend of mine was long (bought) reliance and ITC, he was in a loss and was waiting till the last minute for the prices to improve so that he could sell his shares. at around 3.15 pm the broker's terminal suddenly crashed and he could not square off his position. there was no other option but to pick up the delivery. in those days brokers normally did not give finance, hence he had to arrange for funds with great difficulty. the next day the shares opened around 3-4% above the previous day's close and he was saved frm the loss that he would have suffered on the previous day.
as the saying goes" winners dont do different things, they just do things differently". he could not comprehend as to why most of the stocks opened 3-4% above the previous close. this set him thinking and he reached the conclusion that since wednesday was the first day of the settlement, anybody buying anytime between wednesday and tuesday does not have to give the payment (as is the case with intraday trades these days, u do not have to give the payment if u square off before the close), but anybody not squaring off on tuesday would have to give the full payment for delivery.
he realized the following points of crowd behaviour:

1. most of the people speculate frm the long side, ie. they buy first and sell later.
2. most of the people dont want to pick up delivery, they want to speculate with little or no money.
3. most of the people do not cut their losses, they wait till the last moment to square off. hence there is a big sellig pressure on the close on tuesday.

now he did just the opposite. he arranged some funds and every week he would buy (normally the most liquid and investor fancied stocks) between 3.20- 3.30 pm on tuesday
and sell them off between 10- 10.15 on wednesday morning, irrespective of whether they opened above or lower frm his price. due to the crowd tendency of not wanting to put in the money, normally tuesday closings were depressed and wednesday mornings were euphoric because the same people who had sold off on tuesday would be ready to buy back on wednesday mornings as they would now get a full week without having to pay fr delivery.
he started getting a 10-15% return on a monthly basis and he steadily raised his amounts. this kind of return if compounded properly can do wonders and it did fr him.

then came the daily settlement and for sometime it seemed that this system would not work, but big brokers like india bulls and india infoline came to the rescue . they started giving their clients 7-8 times limits in intraday. all these trades were squred off forcefully by the brokers between 3- 3.15 pm, so this friend of mine made a portofoilo of liquid investor fancied shres of diff. sectors and the modus operendi remained the same. people come & buy stocks 7-8 times of the amount of money that they have and are forced to sell off @ whatever rate prevailing @ 3.15, hence he started buying between 3.15 and 3.30 and selling of next morning bet. 10 & 10.15. the same idiots would come and buy 8 times of their capital inthe morning. this way one delivery that he picked up would remain with him for many days, till the time the stock is showing upwards movement. the stt etc. for delivery was paid only twice. rest of the days it became just an intraday transaction , sold in the morning & squared off in the evening.
admittedly there are a few days in bet. when the market opens lower, the key is to book the loss on these particular days but more often than not, becos of the greed of the people to take up positions 8-10 times of their capital, the mornings open generally better than the previous close, becos the the overnight risk is eliminated and people get 8-10 times exposure again for the whole day.
there have been 2 major makt. falls in this period, yes he lost 10-20% in a single day a few times but made a return of over 100% in the preceding few months of the fall.and after the fall, the key is to lye low till the mkt. stabalizes and then reennter.
there are many other facets to this which are beyond the scope of this post. I have just tried to give an insight of the methodology of a very successful trader. there is no TA, no FA, just the behavior study of the masses and benefitting frm it.
although the market dynamics have changed a lot since which are again beyond the scope of this post, just to try it out,anybody can make a portfolio of any 8-10 liquid fast moving cash shares of his choice (shares that are not in f&o) and backtest it on the past six month or one yr data. what would have happened if he would have bought blindly half of his position @ 3.15 and the rest @ 3.25 everyday, and sold off the same between 9.00 and 9.15 the next morning. this can be checked on shres of ur choice. remember u keep the same stocks till the the time they are moving , so u pay the delivery commission & stt only while buying and selling once and everyday trade is treated as an itraday squareoff, sold in the morning and bought back in the afternnoon.


regards

Anurag
Hi Anurag - I have some doubts on your BTST method posted above.

Even if the stocks moves up everyday next morning from the previous closing price, what you suggest is sell in the morning and buy back in the evening i.e miss the entire days move for that stock.

If the stock is going through an uptrend (bull market), you might earn in the overnight gap ups but missing the intraday rally doesnt help. Buy and hold strategy will always beat the returns here.

If the stock is in the downtrend, you might earn in the overnight gap ups but intraday it will fall anyways. Given that you hold that share in delivery, its not good for your portfolio is it? In a downtrend you will get more gap downs than gap ups + intraday downward moves.

What do you think?

Cheers
SH
 
Last edited:

anuragmunjal

Well-Known Member
#58
Hi Anurag - I have some doubts on your BTST method posted above.

Even if the stocks moves up everyday next morning from the previous closing price, what you suggest is sell in the morning and buy back in the evening i.e miss the entire days move for that stock.

If the stock is going through an uptrend (bull market), you might earn in the overnight gap ups but missing the intraday rally doesnt help. Buy and hold strategy will always beat the returns here.

If the stock is in the downtrend, you might earn in the overnight gap ups but intraday it will fall anyways. Given that you hold that share in delivery, its not good for your portfolio is it? In a downtrend you will get more gap downs than gap ups + intraday downward moves.

What do you think?

Cheers
SH

There can be two scenarios


hi SH

if someone can buy n hold good shares for a long period of time, nothing can beat that, but a very few people are actually able to achieve that. I am speaking frm a trader's perspective.
the problem that we normally face as traders is that we try n capture the whole move and we all know that only a very small percentage of traders succeed. I would be personally very happy if I buy a stock for 100 today, sell it for 103 tomorrow and it goes to 110 in the afternoon, becos of the simple fact that whoever has bought it today has got a good profit and would want to buy it again tomorrow and there is a high probability that I would be able to sell it for 113-114 the next morning. what matters to me is the cumulative return at the end of the month. lets look at it in another way, if a stock goes up frm 100-400, and I am able to manage 150 Rs. frm that move, I would be more than happy, considering my risk is also less as compared to buy n hold.
regarding ur second doubt about stocks in downtrend opening gap down, thefirst thing is to book the loss and then the idea is to weed out such stocks from the portfolio and replace them with moving, investor fancied counters periodically.
as I said in the previous post, the market dynamics have changed now and the return in the above mentioned method is not outstanding anymore, but it is still above average. check it on a few yrs. back data and you can see the results for urself.
just as an example I bought sriintfin on budget day this year and kept rotating the stock fr 2-3 months. It gave me stupendous returns.

regards

Anurag
 

babukraman

Well-Known Member
#60
there's one thing I can say, those who make money from the markets, never ever reveal how they do it. No book, no seminar contains the actual strategy to do it. This my friend is the reality of trading industry. And when people raise doubts about TA or FA, these smart traders, simply sit back and smile.

Tc
Very well said! Kudos! :clap: :clapping: :thumb:
Babu Kothandaraman
 
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