Come into the Trader's Den

DanPickUp

Well-Known Member
Hi

I have this article for quit a long time. Some times I go and read some articles from my archive and as I am in a process of learning every day, I realize, that I justice some of my information in my archive in a different way, then I did it when I first time read it. I do not know, if this happens to you. If you never tried, save some post or decide to read some threads in a half a year again and analyze your thoughts on certain object.

This post will give some thoughts about your personality. How do we handle our self's when it comes to Greed and Fear. I wish, it brings you one little steep forward in being or becoming a successful trader. If you are interested in more information about the written post, you may try this : marketfocusing . com

Here it goes :

Gene showed that the people who were successful cases all shared a certain skill: the capacity to think WITH their gut feelings.

Now, you can’t be in sync with the market if you’re not in sync with yourself. That’s when you enter trades not because you have a green light but out
of compulsion, or get out not because of a red light but out of fear.

We all have both tendencies in ourselves. We all have a pushy part and a cautious part. This is not bad at all, we need them both. Without the pushy
part, we’d never be able to pull the trigger. And without the cautious part we’d never keep out of trouble. The problem is when we are taken over by
one of them. That’s when our motivation degenerates into GREED, and our caution into FEAR.

It’s as if inside every trader, there is both an overconfident trader AND a trader suffering from loss of confidence. All traders have bumped into
these two sides of themselves. So, how do we avoid merging with them, becoming them?

The first thing to do is to become better acquainted with them. Take one at a time. And ask yourself: What’s this part of me like? What am I like when
I’m merged with it? You might say: I already know it very well! I wish I’d know it LESS well! But the truth is that you can’t wish it away. What you
want is to engage its cooperation.

The trick here, the important thing, is to take an attitude of interested curiosity. See yourself as a scientist, who’s interested in what he’s observing, trying to find out what it’s like, what it feels like in your body.
And it’s a friendly scientist. A scientist who feels empathy with what he’s studying knowing he doesn’t have to do what it wants.

Say you take the fearful one first. Can you be friendly to it? Acknowledge and welcome it? Say hello to it, as if it was another person, an old friend.

Acknowledging is the first step to neutralize the reactivity. If you try to push it away, it will come back through the back door and guide your behavior.
These parts of you that you think you’re not supposed to have as a trader – you can’t eliminate them by self-talk. Often people who are suffering from
a loss of confidence beat themselves up for it. This becomes self-reinforcing, and this is of course a dead-end.

At the moment you say hello to it, you’ve disidentified with it: you’re no longer IT. Then just let it be there if it wants to. The reactive parts of
us are not PRESENT, they are doing their own stuff, acting out, instead of being in the NOW, interacting with what’s going on out there. Whatever in
you lacks presence, PRESENCE is what it needs – and you, as the observer, can give it by being present to IT!

Then take the other side and do the same.

Now see how it’s possible to just be aware of both of these sides of yourself at the same time. Without identifying with either. You’re the interested
observer! Observing the greedy, overconfident trader and the fearful one who lacks confidence. If you do this correctly, you’ll see how they lose their
grip on you. One of them shows up, you say “hello” to it. It might then go away, or just become less intense. If it’s still there, use this as a chance
to observe it with interested curiosity and find out more about it! Once you listen to it, the other one is likely to show up, too. Once you have both,
they can begin to cooperate.

Fallibility is a key concept. Soros calls his operating principle “The Belief in Fallibility”. The possibility of being wrong makes most people anxious.
We don’t like to consider it. Soros, in contrast, is interested in how he’s going to be wrong. He knows every hypothesis is flawed, every trade will
degenerate. When he has a “green light”, he puts on a trade. But as long as he can only see the positive side, he worries. This worry guides him into
searching for the flaw. Once he finds it, then he feels at ease. He’s prepared for it, ahead of the curve. Knowing THAT he’ll be wrong and constantly
searching for WHERE and HOW he’ll go wrong gave him a huge edge.

Take care

DanPickUp
 
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nac

Well-Known Member
I have a doubt regarding dividend, ex-date etc...

I was holding HINDUNILVR since march and liquidated them on 8th of July 2010 (that was the ex-date). Am I eligible for dividend announced or I ain't? If I am eligible when I should get the dividend in my account?

I Google-ed it, but still I am not clear...
 

rajputz

Well-Known Member
I have a doubt regarding dividend, ex-date etc...

I was holding HINDUNILVR since march and liquidated them on 8th of July 2010 (that was the ex-date). Am I eligible for dividend announced or I ain't? If I am eligible when I should get the dividend in my account?

I Google-ed it, but still I am not clear...
If between the day you bought and sold the shares, Dividend was announced by the company, then you will get the check delivered to your home against the number of shares you bought. Otherwise not. Even if you holded them for a week and dividend was declared then you are eligible for it. I have recieved dividend this way many times. When i holded for week and dividend was declared in between. I got the check declared payable in my account.
 

alroyraj

Well-Known Member
I have a doubt regarding dividend, ex-date etc...

I was holding HINDUNILVR since march and liquidated them on 8th of July 2010 (that was the ex-date). Am I eligible for dividend announced or I ain't? If I am eligible when I should get the dividend in my account?

I Google-ed it, but still I am not clear...
It all depends on when the book closure was announced. It was 10th to 26th of July 2010 for Hindustan Unilever (both days inclusive). The first day of the No Delivery period is considered as an Ex - Date since the buyer of the shares is not eligible for the corporate benefits for this BC. So relax you are in.
I am on the other side,I bought Cadila today which happened to be the ex date,so a long wait for the sahre to reach my demat.
 
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nac

Well-Known Member
It all depends on when the book closure was announced. It was 10th to 26th of July 2010 for Hindustan Unilever (both days inclusive). The first day of the No Delivery period is considered as an Ex - Date since the buyer of the shares is not eligible for the corporate benefits for this BC. So relax you are in. I am on the other side,I bought Cadila today which happened to be the ex date,so a long wait for the sahre to reach my demat.
:clap: Good to hear, I thought I should have kept it till the end of the month (for the sake of dividend).
 
AW10 and all,

I have a query -

If any one is carrying covered call and next day market jumps 100 points in favor, what is the best way to protect those 100 points profit. No issue with capital for taking a new position for protecting profit, also no issue in holding position till expiry.

Say, carrying 5400 NF long and 5500 call short at 25 rs. Tomorrow market opens at 5500, how to protect those 100+25 rs profit in the best way.

Thanks!
 

DanPickUp

Well-Known Member
AW10 and all,

I have a query -

If any one is carrying covered call and next day market jumps 100 points in favor, what is the best way to protect those 100 points profit. No issue with capital for taking a new position for protecting profit, also no issue in holding position till expiry.

Say, carrying 5400 NF long and 5500 call short at 25 rs. Tomorrow market opens at 5500, how to protect those 100+25 rs profit in the best way.

Thanks!
Hi Simple_trader

First, here a link for all which do not know what a covered call is :
http://www.optionseducation.org/strategy/covered_call.jsp

In your example you are long Nifty and you are short a call.

If Nifty moves up, you make money on Nifty and you loos on the short call.
If I have a short call, I want to buy it back cheaper than when I sold it. This is not possible, when market moves up. It is only possible, when market moves down.

There is no plus plus. There is plus against minus.

Important is the delta of the short call. If your delta is less than 50 ( what would be the case in this trade ), then you loose less on the call then you win on the future.

But an other important point is the volatility for the moment market opens when gaping 100 points. The volatility will be high and that means, your call could be quit expensive and that would mean a higher loss for your call option if the volatility doe's not drop down during the day.

Time value has not a big effect on your trade, because you speak only about one day. Even if you do this trade near option expiration, it will be small.

You could keep this trade by initiating an other covered call by 5500 with the same possibility and hopping to get out from this one with little profit or little loss when market falls down to 5300.

Analyze the following picture, which you can adapt to your trade. If it is now a bull spread or a covered call, the system can be the same. I recommend you, to test such ideas. As you see, I got such ideas, write it down and then test it with my tools. It is a very simple idea and with enough patient, it can bring you out of trouble.

http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/7704/41889644.png

But this is not a strategy I would do on a regular basis. If a trade went against me, I go out and take the loss. If you made some little win, take it and place a better trade.

Gaps are devils on one side an on the other side they are a presents, depending on the strategy we trade at this moment. Gaps have to be included in any trading plan we make.

Take care

DanPickUp
 
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Hi Simple_trader

First, here a link for all which do not know what a covered call is :
http://www.optionseducation.org/strategy/covered_call.jsp

In your example you are long Nifty and you are short a call.

If Nifty moves up, you make money on Nifty and you loos on the short call.
If I have a short call, I want to buy it back cheaper than when I sold it. This is not possible, when market moves up. It is only possible, when market moves down.

There is no plus plus. There is plus against minus.

Important is the delta of the short call. If your delta is less than 50 ( what would be the case in this trade ), then you loose less on the call then you win on the future.

But an other important point is the volatility for the moment market opens when gaping 100 points. The volatility will be high and that means, your call could be quit expensive and that would mean a higher loss for your call option if the volatility doe's not drop down during the day.

Time value has not a big effect on your trade, because you speak only about one day. Even if you do this trade near option expiration, it will be small.

You could keep this trade by initiating an other covered call by 5500 with the same possibility and hopping to get out from this one with little profit or little loss when market falls down to 5300.

Analyze the following picture, which you can adapt to your trade. If it is now a bull spread or a covered call, the system can be the same. I recommend you, to test such ideas. As you see, I got such ideas, write it down and then test it with my tools. It is a very simple idea and with enough patient, it can bring you out of trouble.

http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/7704/41889644.png

But this is not a strategy I would do on a regular basis. If a trade went against me, I go out and take the loss. If you made some little win, take it and place a better trade.

Gaps are devils on one side an on the other side they are a presents, depending on the strategy we trade at this moment. Gaps have to be included in any trading plan we make.

Take care

DanPickUp

Hi Dan,

Thank you for your reply and illustration on the trade. It has enhanced my knowledge. Basically I know advantage and disadvantages of the strategy.

I asked about specific query and wish to know about how to protect profit.

If current price has reached to call strike, so I should get everything (call strike - future long entry price)+ call premium. But I can not realize profit as expiry is a few days away.

In this situation, is there an alternative way to protect this profit when price is at call strike. I am ready to take additional position when price is at call strike and hold it till expiry. What would be those additional position strategy, which can ensure profit locked till expiry.

Thanks!
 

AW10

Well-Known Member
I have a doubt regarding dividend, ex-date etc...

I was holding HINDUNILVR since march and liquidated them on 8th of July 2010 (that was the ex-date). Am I eligible for dividend announced or I ain't? If I am eligible when I should get the dividend in my account?

I Google-ed it, but still I am not clear...
nac, this is what i found on the net. I have different view on this from what rajputz or aloyraj has mentioned, but found this excerpt reflecting what I have in mind (so rather then typing myself, just copy-pasting).

Registrar (like karvy) play important role in this process.
It is pity that how many investor/trader have poor knowledge of whole backend process of settlement (cause it is not as sexy as TA or balance sheet reading).

For hll, books are closed from 10/jul to 27-jul, and ex-date is 8-july. From 9-july, the stock must be trading ex-bonus. That means, anybody who bought the share on or after 9th-july will not see his name in the shareholder register, which is taken to write the cheques. At the same time, if u sell the shares on 9th, ur name will not be removed from the register cause by T+2 days, the books is already closed for any new change. Basically, during book closure period, no shareholder's dmat account will be changed for hindunilvr stocks.


hope this helps.. happy trading.
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Book Closure Dates: Transfer of shares is a continuous process. Shares change hands at a rapid pace every day. So it may not be possible for the companies to find out eligible investors for the corporate benefits. So they fix a date and announce that the investors who are in their records on that date would be eligible for the benefits. They close the share transfer books for a period for this purpose. This period is called Book Closure period. During this period companies after identifying the eligible investors, pass the benefits to depositories which in turn to investors. In NSE website this period is given as BC Start Date and BC End Date.

Record Date: A day before Book Closure period is Record Date. Only the investors who are in the share transfer books of a company on the end of the day on Record Date is eligible for the corporate benefits.

Ex-Date: It is the date on which the corporate benefit is reflected in the share price. The investors who hold the securities just before this day are eligible for corporate benefits. The people who buy shares on or after this date are not eligible for the benefits.

Record date and Ex-Date both sound similar? There is a difference. If we buy a security today the share will get delivered to your account after T+2 days. Usually there is a difference of 1 or 2 trading days between Record date and Ex-date. If you buy a security 1 day before Ex-date the share will be on your name in the books of share holders of the company before the record date and you will be eligible for the benefits. Buyers who buy the shares on or after the Ex-Date are not eligible for the same.

Example
Lets say Reliance Power announced Bonus issue of shares. Book Closure dates are from 2008 July 23rd to 25th . Ex date is 21st July and record date is 22nd July. That is if you buy Reliance Power shares before 21st July your name will be there in the share holders books of the company and you will get bonus shares. Usually it takes 7 8 days for the bonus shares to get credited to your account. The person who buys Rel Power shares on or after 21st July is not eligible for the bonus issue because company considers the entries in share holders books end of the day on Record Date. Company will close its books from July 23rd to 25th

On Ex-Date the price of the Rel Power is Ex-Bonus i.e. if the price of the share is Rs500 on 20th July it would be around Rs260 (consider 1:1 bonus. Because of the lower price liquidity increases and hence the price will move little more than Rs 250) on July 21st.

If you have 1000 shares on July 20th you can sell them on that day for Rs500 per share. On July 21st the price would be Rs260 and you will have only 1000 shares. The remaining 1000 shares will get added to your account after 7-8 days.

======
 

AW10

Well-Known Member
AW10 and all,

I have a query -

If any one is carrying covered call and next day market jumps 100 points in favor, what is the best way to protect those 100 points profit. No issue with capital for taking a new position for protecting profit, also no issue in holding position till expiry.

Say, carrying 5400 NF long and 5500 call short at 25 rs. Tomorrow market opens at 5500, how to protect those 100+25 rs profit in the best way.

Thanks!
simple_trader, that is the limitation of covered call strategy..that u are limiting the profit.
covered call is suitable for mildly bullish mkt, but hurts in strongly trending mkt cause u endup limiting the profit coming from strong trend.
to address this, you might like to answer following question
qu - has trend changed after this major move..?
- if yes, i..e it has become strongly trending, then take off the short call at loss, and ride the strong trend with futures.
- if no, ie mkt will come down again, then u might just hold on to the position with no additional gain
- if no, and u want to make more money from the opportunity that has come from gap-up, then short u can sell 5500 call, or maybe sell another 5400 call and wait for mkt to come down.
these 2 options might increase the risk..hence u might like to revisit the risk mgmt plan of trade.
- if no, then u can also buy 5500 put to benefit from any drop back to 5300 side. Limited risk, low margin strategy.. but still need risk mgmt on long put

hope this helps.
happy trading
 

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