Spirituality and ShareMarket

#1
Dearest Traderji and respected all seniors of the forum,

I am posting my views on a bit off track topic.Hope it does not bore you much.

IS there any corelation between Spirituality and the Stock Market?

With each day ,as I add on to my experience in the StockMarket(just a span of over an year)and read about the people who are successful in this arena,I more and more am getting a concrete picture of the importance of self descipline and the role of spirituality in this profession.

But before I proceed further ,the question that must arise is :How do I interpret spirituality?

Well friends, first of all,let us not confuse spirituality with religion.I truely feel (with my experience) that the most religious fanatic can actually be the least spiritual person, while the the greatest atheist may be an icon of spirituality.

Spiritualy is all about mental descipline with an attitude to seek for knowledge in the truest sense.It is probably to attain a state of dispassion ,----not by shaking off the responsibilities,but to act beyond the petty emotions.

We must learn to accept the present moment,whether it is a state of utmost happiness,or that of greatest sorrow. It is our expectations which reduces our state of joy ,whereby we fail to enjoy the greatest thrills of day to day happier instances..

A man who always tries to win by hook or crook,turns out to be the greatest loser at the end of the day.

Being a student of physics,I always had a feeling that science can win over nature in all instances.But coming under the contact of a great prophet(Sri Sri Ravi Shanker--founder of AOL),I realised how frail my views were.

We have to live in harmony with Nature,- -Science aids our understanding of natural phenomenon--,it can utmost explain the laws of nature but cannot rein it.

Similarly ,it must be realised that, even the very best can never actually understand each and every pulse of the Stock market(With due respect to all the great Tradng Analysts) , though after all the StockMarket is a human creation;---for the stock market comprises of the wealth of each and every individual taking part in it,--who are all in turn the creation of Nature.

As we can learn to inculcate a deep understanding of Nature with due respect;similarly we must try to predict the market movement with due respect.


After all our very existance is a case of probablity- -- wehave to accept this fact even though how hard we try to deny it.Similarly the movement of the Stock Market is a case of probablity--great mathameticians and economists have all accepted this fact ,and have tried to give various problastic interpretations.

If we learn to understand them with due respect and with a state of dispassion,like that of a true seeker,and try to make gains without cheating somebody else,I am sure that we can all become really successful in this most speculative GAME of CHANCES.

NB: These ar entirely my personal views,and one has every right to differ from my opinion
 
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sh50

Active Member
#2
There is a direct correlation, my friend. In trading you can do well only if you are able to balance your fear and greed. That is what spirituality is all about isn't it-equanimity? In fact, after one has mastered trading skills and money management sufficiently, the best way to see what a person's SQ(spiritual quotient) is to see how he operates in the stock market.

Osho had said that life itself is constant insecurity and there too is one of the best lessons from the sharemarket at least in the short run.

Another thing that the stockmarket teaches is that one should not have an ego and get out of the marktet when one is wrong. Since time immemorial spirituality has been preaching but ego management remains a predominant problem. One has to surrender to the market-good practice for spirituality.

I believe that Technical analysis should be an essential part of curriculum. Spirituality apart, it will save people from the wrong people and wrong expectations.

There is another interesting analogy. We all know that in the stockmarket there can never be a supreme guru who can be right all the time. I have so far given contrarian views with proof to some of these spiritual/motivation gurus but while acknowledging my views, they still want to portray themselves as infallible. When there cannot be a supreme guru for the stockmarket, how can there be one for life. Check out krishnamurthy on leaders and gurus if you don't believe.To try and become a guru itself is somewhat unspiritual because knowledge is food for the ego and in spirituality there cannot be an ego. One has to explore issues through discussions (according to krishnamurthy) as we are doing instead of searching for larger than life heros or gurus.

One similarity here is that the stockmarket too is full of quacks:-

What you have said about the "divergence" between spirituality and religion is absolutely true. Like in other walks of life, there are "spiritual professionals" who distort their profession(religion, spirituality) for money. In fact our own India with its so called spiritual legacy is a lot of nonsense. India is just a country with a lot of spiritual knowledge. Application, in comparion is zilch. If application(acting beyond petty emotions) had been half as good as theory, we would not have a most problems that plague our country. In the stkmarket, application is tough because of information overflow.

We must learn to accept the present moment,whether it is a state of utmost happiness,or that of greatest sorrow. It is our expectations which reduces our state of joy ,whereby we fail to enjoy the greatest thrills of day to day happier intances
This is very well said. Following the principle of "perception of reality more important than reality", the stock market too runs on expectations and the one who is able to monitor others and alter one's expectations is the winner. Suffice to say that in the western world, desire is the driving force behind everything but in the eastern world desire is the bane of everything. The truth of course lies somewhere in between--the golden mean as osho would say. In the battle between the bulls and the bears, the pivot keeps shifting.
Where being in present is concerned, nothing better than day trading since they don't carry any positions forward and strictly believe in " live for today". When you day trade, you need maximum concentration. Most people I have met do not trade more than two scrips at a time for better focus. If you do not "live in the moment", you cannot day trade effectively. We also have to forget losses and carry on with trading.

A man who always tries to win by hook or crook, turns out to be the greatest loser at he end of the day.
This to my mind is more of a belief. Karma philosophy examples abound in how a man can commit three murders and get away with it and thereafter be blamed for a murder he did not commit. Though things are bound to even out over several lifetimes(subject to proof), one can never say definitely that one will always lose at the end of the day and one will always win if honest because past life karma also has a role to play. We all know how most politicians are- they are prosperous arent they- how do you know that all who are crooks will definitely be losers in the end. One comes across good, honest people who do not do well as well. Except karma, there are no explanations for this. Many people also say that Krama is a needless explanation-just accept things as they are.

We have to live in harmony with Nature,- -Science aids our understanding of natural phenomenon--,it can utmost explain the laws of nature but cannot rein it.
This is well said. All the problems of mankind are because applied spirituality has lagged behind applied science though pure spirituality preceded pure science. .

we can all become really successful in this most speculative GAME of CHANCES.
. Using the word all is inappropriate thinking because it is like a sweeping statement. Facts also state that a majority of people lose in the market. Osho explained Paradox is the logic of life implying contradictions in life which implies that sweeping statement should be avoided. "Never" and "Always" are the too most dangerous words which requires the highest degree of circumspection.

Spirituality is not about fancy intellectualism but techniques and nuts and bolts management as well. You addressed me as Sir in the reliable financial analysis post which is unspiritual because addressing people like that builds up their ego subconsciously. On the other hand if you address your servant or child as Aap, it becomes a spiritual act because in moments of anger , the word will automatically not let things out of control.
 
#3
Dearest sh50,
"Spirituality is all about equnamity!!!"---how true the words are!!
Now I can feel the implication of the great words--
"With a calm and quite mind
Balanced and equanimous mind
Maintaining perfect equanamity
With the law of Impermanance in Nature"

When "Creation and Destruction", is supposed to be a simulteneous phenomenon in nature,--for maintaining a state of overall equilibrium,--the quasi periodic rise and fall in the price of a stock,--however outperformer it might be,--is bound to be! It is the attainment of the lower levels in the stock prices ,that gives rise to the remote possibility of the attainment of the next higher levels.
Only when one can curve his/her mind inward,and remain in a balanced and equanimous state,can he/she forsee the hidden symmetry in this aparent chaotic world of the bulls and the bears,and act wisely.

"When there cannot be a supreme guru for the stockmarket, how can there be one for life."---True!Very True!! But then where does the question of supremity arises?
A guru is someone who shows a path of life.It is one's own intellect to decide whether the path is good or bad,and act accordingly.
The Guru who claims himself to be the Supremo and preaches religious fanatisms is the greatest fraud in my opinion.One should positively stay away from such a personality.Likewise the famed analysts who claims thmselves to be near perfect,must be treated very cautiously.

Last ,but not the least--showing respect to a senior and Knowledgable person is nothing unspiritual in my dictionary.I intentionally used the word "Sir" to show my appreation to your attitude of sharing knowledge.
But then as it has hurt you,I have dropped it in this post.
The different aspects of teachnical analysis is like an ocean.Do Bless me ,
so that I can have suffient expertise in this art,(even though I come from a different stream),and carry on trading for the betterment of mankind.
NB:
1)Can you please present the theory of Murrey Maths Line.I went through the postings of Credit Violet,can somewhat understand the logic of the code,
but the parameters which are being passed in the functions are not totally clear.
2)While drawing the Fabonocci lines,what should be considered as the base,
wrt which the lines at 61.8%,etc.are supposed to be drawn?I do not possess Metastock,and neither do I intend to buy one.
If you ,or Credit Violet can get me the algorithm for the Febonacci lines,
I will be obliged to both of you.



Regards,
joy_mitali
 
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sh50

Active Member
#4
The Guru who claims himself to be the Supremo and preaches religious fanatisms is the greatest fraud in my opinion
I was not referring to those gurus. In Metastock, there is a process of optimization by which one can choose what moving average and other technicals apply better on which share. Several of these spiritual/motivation gurus make sweeping statements of what they teach without knowing how the concepts apply on each individual or his field of expertise and the audience also laps it up without discrimination or viveka as our Shastras propound. Only somebody like Lord Krishna who is a trikaldarshi and who knows how and when to apply what can be revered as a guru. We all know his role in the Mahabharata, dont we. I read in a book that Krishna would never have sent his wife on what some Dhobi said the way Rama did. Even god has to be practical and optimize.Wonder how the lord would have dealt with something like the mkt?

I would reiterate that optimization is one of the best spiritual lessons of the stock market; in fact both Viveka and Vairagya if one goes by trading psychology.

I intentionally used the word "Sir" to show my appreciation to your attitude of sharing knowledge.
But then as it has hurt you,I have dropped it in this post
Why should I feel hurt. It is flattering considering the fact that I should be calling you Sir going by your intraday post. Just the fact that I was lucky enough to join this forum before you hardly makes me senior. Considering the unstructured TA education in India, Traderji would still probably take my pants off in TA basics as well. In my view (with due respect to others), traderji apart only creditviolet deserves that Sir for both knowledge and contribution in the forum.

In a general sense, the corporate world is full or prima donnas who try to dominate wildly(The boss is always right-corporate rascals though quality circles have proved that the best ideas can emanate from anywhere). In India, I have seen so many families in which the elderly people misuse the respect and try to over dominate. That is why I am against anything that subconsciously builds up ego(bad for trading as well). You know what Osho said, Nobody is superior, nobody inferior, people are themselves. Though you have said it with the right motives, this word generally connotes superiority. I used to be amused when children in America used to call elderly people by first names. We dont have to go that far but there is an element of spirituality in that.("Child is the father of man")

I know Fibonnaci but I am not sure enough to guide someone. I hope credit or traderji responds to your call for the benefit of all concerned. In case you dont know, if you google on Fibonnaci or some other sub topic, it gives far better results than a main topic like Technical analysis.

As for me , I would rather explore the other connections between the stockmarket and spirituality. You have started one of the profoundest and most interesting posts in the forum and I suggest that for this particular post, we stick to that train of thought :-

You have made such an interesting foray
That I feel like shouting hurray
My appreciation for your post is something I cannot portray
To other topics if you stray
You will flatter to deceive and betray
We can always have other posts for mundane stuff like fibo and Murray
You have proved that in other fields of life too, there can be a Richard Gere.

Actor Gere has been closely associated with Dalai lama. It is unusual to come across genuinely spiritually inclined people among traders though a good stint in the stock market can make anybody spiritual. Jokes apart, it would be a pleasure to meet you if and when you visit Delhi.

I learnt from a Journalist We write on each others shoulders . Similarly we continuously learn from one another while exploring issues as krishnmurthy would say. Just as the market is the biggest guru, life and experiences themselves are biggest gurus more than any other individual.
 
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#5
Dearest sh50 and all other respected seniors and juniors,
I feel elevated from ur compliments, but do not really know if I am worthy of it .But at least,it gives me the inspiration to start some more diversified topics.


"You have started one of the profoundest and most interesting posts in the forum "--
Even though I have actually started,it is u only who is carrying it all along.Thanks from the bottom of my heart for ur contributions in this topic ,--which has made my beliefs at least (I do not know about others) more strong ,that there always exists like minded rational people in this universe,whose thoughts and actions are in coherence and in harmony with the Nature.

I would like to put an earnest request to all in the traderji family.

There are many fellow beings in our country who truely live beyond the poverty limit;they do not even have a proper days meal,(I say these words from my own personal experience--If u do not believe,go to the interiors of Ghatsila and see it yourself)---while there are others who do not understand the value of money, and make unnecessary extravagances.

True as long as human race will exist,there will always remain a disproportion of wealth ,every where in this universe,which is unavoidable and in circumsances should be.(we have every right to utilise our intelligence,and reap its fruits---nothing wrong)

But simulteneously we must give it a thought too,that every one in this universe(beyond caste,creed,sex,and religion)has the right to have a smile in his/her face,which is never possible if the basic needs of human beings are not satisfied.

Even it may apparently appear to be, that there is no solution to this age old debate,
but we,the traderji community can always take an initiative and set an example for others.

Cant we at least not make a promise to ourselves,that 5-10% of our profit per profitable trade, we will always keep aside for the benefit of mankind as a whole,--
initially for our countrymen and later for the world community;--for after all ,it is
"Vashudeva Kutumbakam"---"The whole world is my family".
We do not need to give an accont to anyone--just be truthful to our own selves.

After all we all earn more to have mental satisfaction.Believe me ,those who will join this saga,will become more happier in their day to day life,and hence can have their focus much more on their trade,with the belief that each of their loss will deprive their contributions from their countrymen,while each of their extra earnings will make this world ,a much better place to live in.

In this context,I would like to quote Tagore from Geetanjali(I was never an admirer of
Tagore but it is my wife's persistant and passionate analysis of the following poem that struck the innermost chord of my heart----"Thank u --MITALI--once again")

Where The Mind is Without Fear
-------------------------------

Where the mind is without fear and the head is held high;
Where knowledge is free;
Where the world has not been broken up into fragments by narrow
domestic walls;
Where words come out from the depth of truth;
Where tireless striving stretches its arms towards perfection;
Where the clear stream of reason has not lost its way into the
dreary desert sand of dead habit;
Where the mind is led forward by thee into ever-widening thought
and action--
Into that heaven of freedom, my Father, let my country awake.

-- Rabindranath Tagore
Regards ,
To all of u all
from ---joy_mitali
 
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sh50

Active Member
#6
Very noble thoughts, Mr Mitali. It seems you really live up to your first name. What you have suggested is what I call The enterprise of capitlalism with the values of socialism. Margret Thatcher had said that good intentions are not enough; they have to be backed up by money which corroborates what you have said. It has also to be backed by good organization, administration and consistency. Otherwise flash in the pan efforts do not have much meaing.
Rajiv Gandhi as PM with 400 MPs in parliament had said that only 15% reaches the poor. Three years back during the Gujrat Earthquake people called us up from Ahmedabad stating that we should not contribute to the PMs relief fund and whatever contributions have to be made had to be made in kind not cash.I remember reading in Outlook money how the director of Lagaan said that he didnt mind giving money to the temple provided it was monitored and put to proper use for which it was intended.

All this apart, Mr Mitalis views must be seconded. If everybody had this spirit, we would not have most problems in the first place. One must add that aid must be given to make people self sufficient and not dependent. We have enough subsidies in the budget.

While Mr Tagores poem is wonderful, I think it is very rarely that it has been implemented in letter and spirit or shall be.

Reading Mr Gujrals derivative book again, I came across a statement Dont form strong opinions on the market. It reminded me of what Osho said once .Only fools give opinion To which I added and only fools respond to them This is said because the opinions may have been formed because of our past prejudices and conditioning and the person/issue may have changed by then and there is a divergence Spirituality constantly tells us to be non-judgmental because when you go to the deeper roots you get a completely different picture as in the case of some companies who try to window dress their balance sheets-management accounting v/s financial accounting.

I was associated with a person conducting spiritual workshops who told me a kind of story. He said that a person walking on the road saw some people beating a man. He tried to pacify them and telling them about the undesirability of violence. However when he learnt later that the beaten person had burnt his wife alive, he started beating him himself. Opinions can be so fickle and that is why spirituality constantly tells us to be non-judgemental; Mr Gujral also tells us how nimble one must be to adjust to the market if one wants to succeed. TA to me too is more of a market adjusting rather than mkt forecasting or decision making tool. I have already spoken of spiritual principle of "surrender " to the mkt.

Interpersonal conflicts are also caused because of opinions formed on prejudices because of different conditionings.

I also read somewhere that if you have not formed a new opinion recently or revised an old one, you have not lived.

Take a look at this contradictory opinions:-

Where there is a will, there is a way. Will is no skill.
Look before you leap . He who hesitates is lost.
Too many cooks spoil the broth. Many hands make light work.
Fortune favors the brave. It is better to lose opportunity than to lose capital
Action speaks louder than words. Words are triggers to action.
Nothing succeeds like success. All covet, all lose.
Faint heart never one fair lady. Fools rush in where angels fear to tread.
Spend and God will send If you want to be rich, be industrious and frugal..
Knowledge is power. Ignorance is bliss.
It is never too late.
It is too late to shut the stable door after the horse has bolted.
It is too late to spare when the bottom is bare.

Doesnt it prove that

Truth is a pathless land
Truth is not only unknown but unknowable
Truth is stranger than fiction
Truth is more a journey than a destination
A great truth is a truth whose opposite is also a truth

Doesnt it apply to our dear stock market more than anything else. The so called intellectual truth may still be found but the stockmarket truth will always prove elusive because "There is no holy grail"-applies equally to life actually:-.

All maxims have their opposites, and proverbs should be sold in pairs a single one being half the truth. - SENECA

Moral of the story-good old optimization. You have to know what to do with which instead of any single strategy.
 
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sh50

Active Member
#7
Mr Mitali has really initiated a wonderful post and it has put me on a bullish run. This being Sunday, I hope you wont mind if I add something more.

Normally it is said that message is more important than the medium but here it is vice-versa too. Normally even when we discuss with friends or relatives, it degenerates into a verbal war of attrition and we end up arguing. This is such a fantastic medium where we are forced to read each others views before responding which automatically ensures a peaceful exchange which correlates with spirituality. Otherwise one can come across several verbal brawls.

I must add here that no less a person than Mother Teresa who has run the largest charity organization in the world has expressed her reservation about verbal conversations. she said that they sometimes create more problems than they solve. Aren't we lucky then to have this wonderful medium. Just as a mechanical trading system takes the emotion out of trading, this takes the emotion out of discussions and one can be unbiased and objective.


A psychiatrist once said that to solve family disputes, one had to force each others family members to listen to each other without interruption and since the forums enable precisely that, I hail them as a spiritual tool. In this post, we have both the message and the medium thanks to Mr Mitali. Not only him but other new members like Sanjay_mugur and nkpanjiyar are enhancing the quality of this forum:-

Spirituality is all about enriching the soul and elevating the spirit
Eventually quality discussions also reflect a forum's merit
If a wonderful legacy the future members are to inherit
The intersourses should be as revered as our ancient language-Sanskrit.

This is in response to Mr Mitali's Vashudeva Kutumbakam"---"The whole world is my family". It is a poem that I had written on September-11

LEGACY OF SEPTEMBER 11

The world on the whole continues to bemoan September Eleven;
As if before that, the earth was some heaven.
The events of September eleven were a blot on mankindevolution;
It indicated that mankind has not progressed beyond the cavern.
The information revolution and mass communication
should have enabled a religious break-even.
It could have heralded a religious and political revolution.
Art and sports bind people together, we need many a Beethoven;
One has to be as spiritually agile to ensure
that the world everywhere is truly cosmopolitan
What we need is a spiritual James bond;a spiritual 007
To investigate into, contrary to what it preaches,
the religious intent behind September eleven.
Whether an Asian, European, African or American,
Whether Manhatten or any other nation, new ways are needed to enlighten
If there is one legacy that will always be attributed
to the events of September eleven
Applied spirituality needs to be as successful as applied science
i. e the world badly needs to straighten.
Humanity must be the sole religion to avoid another September 11.

God alone knows if and when it will ever happen. One thing here. In India, the film Industry is supposed to be a symbol of communal harmony as one can do well irrespective of religion. The mkt too is religion-proof.
 
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#9
Thanks to Mittal and sh50 for exploring such a wonderful topic. I am thankful to you for writing such a big note. This will be very much useful to all who don't have mental equilbrium. Hope all the members will understands the concept of spirituality properly...

well done .
 

sh50

Active Member
#10
The latest India today refers to the late pope(may his soul rest in peace) as a spiritual superman:-

Recent events and this post reminds us of the late pope
Who played a pivotal role in liberating Eastern Europe
Trading liberation(Holy grail);the holy father or his contemporaries would have not been able to cope
Expressing helplessness, they would have blurted something which sometimes represents all spirituality-hope.

Us poor traders. All the spiritual greats have great achievements to their credit and have solved some complex problems. Only the holy grail eludes mankind; we may land on Mars someday but alas; no holy grail.

One of the commonest statement one comes across in trading psychology is the phrase Know thyself. I read that if you give the same trading system to two people, one may become a multimillionaire with it and the other can become a beggar. This would bely those people who keep repeating that one can do anything with the right can do attitude which is a lot of nonsense. Traderji had mentioned in one of his posts that it could take 2-3 years to zero in on your niche and Mr Gujral says it may take even 5. In real life if one hates ones job, one can hardly be deemed spiritual because you cannot be peaceful or equnomous if you hate what you are doing all your working hours

Speaking for myself when I was in high school, I would go around saying

Whether your father makes profit or loss
When you join him in business, you become automatic boss

When your father is in business, you can be sure of one thing
Whoever can come and go, you will be the king.

Whether it is a restaurant, factory or shop
The principle is the same; replace the pop at the top.

Today, this is a three page poem but it took me a very long time to realize that I was missing the wood for the tress- I was a poet and not a buniessman(I thought it was a shortcut to sucess; its so for some people only) when I bumped into that guy who got six promotions in one year. I had a ring side view of what it takes to be an outstanding businsessman. Mr Amitabh Bachchan had also mentioned how important it is to detect early in life what you are good at just as we try to catch a trend early;catch them young. Otherwise it can mean a lifetime of misery and frustration. In some extreme cases, "know thyself" can take a lifetime.

Talking of business heirs, the Ambanis replace the pop at the top has been a flop. People discuss in parties how silly it is to fight over thousands of crores(its all right to fight for a few) though it is obvious that it has more to do with control as well. Somebody made a strange remark, The Ambani daughters will get peanuts- only 4000 crores each. Now if I were to get even the P of the peanuts, I would start fancying myself the very embodiment of spirituality- god or in the mkts context the stockmarket operator.

God being supreme in spirituality, isnt the so called operator the stockmarket god. The only thing close to him are some film stars who too can dictate anything.It must feel great to control even a few scrips even for a day instead of responding to them. Just imagine- the destiny of a few stocks in your hand- you can make them or break them without any past karma to worry about In Hinduism there is a trinity of gods with specific functions but these guys are all in one- they can create, preserve, destroy any scrip. Wonder what the real god thinks about them?

I have only heard about these characters; if only one of them could join the forum and give an insight into how they drive the market. Cash apart, you need to be spirited if not spiritual to run the market. Not for faint hearts. Reminds us of another spiritual great Swami Vivekanand who has gone on record saying that it is better to play football than to read the gita because a weak person cannot be spiritual-peaceful and equanomous.
 
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