Robots is good or not

[alroyraj]

Dear Alroyraj,

Who ever using Symphony - all are happy about their services especially and very professional.
They don't reveal or promise about the strategies to secure clients.
Except the bottleneck of brokerage part I guess.

But Symphony provides a trading platform -
Strategy API's - Java - which the user can use to code themselves hiding the logic part and the strategy resides in the symphony server.

or
Amibroker/Tradestation - bridge where one can build their strategies and symphony provides/codes the execution logic part.

---- Can you please throw more light on this ?
---- Does this mean all Indicators/TA functionalities are available as Java API's ? or just the data connection,Place Orders,cancel orders,modify orders etc ?

And how RT Data/historical data is accessed ?
If no TA Indicators/or TA functionality or timeframe wise data not provided
how does one code the algos ?

Basically I can understand what it means coding the strategy part in amibroker or some client charting software and just excution API's to connect to symphony from Ami and send orders.

But not clear about the Strategy API part in Java where the strategies can be coded ?

TIA.

I found the following info on symphony :
Q9: Please explain which all APIs are available with you to write custom algorithms?
A9. We have two main categories of APIs:

9.1. Strategy APIs
Strategy APIs - These APIs are in JAVA and available as a part of Java Development environment. These are extensive APIs with trading functionalities, using them you can develop strategies which could reside on the Presto Application server directly.
9.2. Client APIs
Client APIs - Strategies developed using these APIs talks to our ESB (Enterprise Service Bus). ESB has the capability to communicate with the Presto Application Server for sending orders as well as receiving execution reports. We have the Broadcast APIs available, if the strategies developed using Client APIs reside in the network of Presto Application Server. APIs are available for following applications: - JAVA - dotNet - Python - XML - JAVA Script / HTML ^


Q10. Do you have APIs for Live Market Feed?
A10. Yes, We provide APIs for Live Feed. To access data Feed through APIs, algorithm has to reside within the LAN network of the Presto Trading Server at the broker's premises. ^

So to summarise from above, strategy APIs seem to have strategies built-in do no involvement of charting support here. The strategies I think are more for high frequency scalping or arbitrage with tight profit targets and stop loss. All orders for symphony are placed through the presto trading platform. Appears this doesn't have any means to calculate things like moving averages or any historical values and is an add on for the presto jobex. In any case symphony mentioned it doesn't target this segment, as to involve all expensive infrastructure like co location, Dma, low latency etc

Client APIs are used when we need to custom develop an algorithms where it is hard coded as a dll and usually used on a client system (assuming you are a vendor). Obviously you need an order mgmt system like presto or nest plus to place the orders. However we are allowed to place orders directly. Here is where commodity traders can benefit as compared to nest plus api has restrictions on the algorithms, orders can be placed on mcx for algorithms orders. Fixed position sizing can be manually done here on a daily basis by setting quantity or capital via presto.
I checked out the podcasts on YouTube for symphony jobex n presto.
As of now the presto ab plugin with amibroker is the best option in case you are always tweaking the algorithm or intend on adding multiple strategies simultaneously to run in future. These come with its costs being an authorised person around 15k one time , taking the nse certifications, sub broker deposit of a lakh, running costs of 25k annually and 1.5monthly for symphony vps optional, net is anyway around 1.2k monthly. all on all better to have a decent size portfolio of min 6-7lakhs for this.
Else the cost effective options involve using a vendors dll paying 3-5k monthly. I can recommend one new vendor here if you want, comes under the category of client api. Seems like a trade off between capital and running costs.
Until then I am checking to see what can be custom built by different vendors but not getting much headway. Or like jahan bhai might need to get a custom plugin built for 30k by some vendor.

 

[jagankris]

I found the following info on symphony :
Q9: Please explain which all APIs are available with you to write custom algorithms?
A9. We have two main categories of APIs:

9.1. Strategy APIs
Strategy APIs - These APIs are in JAVA and available as a part of Java Development environment. These are extensive APIs with trading functionalities, using them you can develop strategies which could reside on the Presto Application server directly.
9.2. Client APIs
Client APIs - Strategies developed using these APIs talks to our ESB (Enterprise Service Bus). ESB has the capability to communicate with the Presto Application Server for sending orders as well as receiving execution reports. We have the Broadcast APIs available, if the strategies developed using Client APIs reside in the network of Presto Application Server. APIs are available for following applications: - JAVA - dotNet - Python - XML - JAVA Script / HTML ^


Q10. Do you have APIs for Live Market Feed?
A10. Yes, We provide APIs for Live Feed. To access data Feed through APIs, algorithm has to reside within the LAN network of the Presto Trading Server at the broker's premises. ^

So to summarise from above, strategy APIs seem to have strategies built-in do no involvement of charting support here. The strategies I think are more for high frequency scalping or arbitrage with tight profit targets and stop loss. All orders for symphony are placed through the presto trading platform. Appears this doesn't have any means to calculate things like moving averages or any historical values and is an add on for the presto jobex. In any case symphony mentioned it doesn't target this segment, as to involve all expensive infrastructure like co location, Dma, low latency etc

Client APIs are used when we need to custom develop an algorithms where it is hard coded as a dll and usually used on a client system (assuming you are a vendor). Obviously you need an order mgmt system like presto or nest plus to place the orders. However we are allowed to place orders directly. Here is where commodity traders can benefit as compared to nest plus api has restrictions on the algorithms, orders can be placed on mcx for algorithms orders. Fixed position sizing can be manually done here on a daily basis by setting quantity or capital via presto.
I checked out the podcasts on YouTube for symphony jobex n presto.
As of now the presto ab plugin with amibroker is the best option in case you are always tweaking the algorithm or intend on adding multiple strategies simultaneously to run in future. These come with its costs being an authorised person around 15k one time , taking the nse certifications, sub broker deposit of a lakh, running costs of 25k annually and 1.5monthly for symphony vps optional, net is anyway around 1.2k monthly. all on all better to have a decent size portfolio of min 6-7lakhs for this.
Else the cost effective options involve using a vendors dll paying 3-5k monthly. I can recommend one new vendor here if you want, comes under the category of client api. Seems like a trade off between capital and running costs.
Until then I am checking to see what can be custom built by different vendors but not getting much headway. Or like jahan bhai might need to get a custom plugin built for 30k by some vendor.

Thanks AlroyRaj.
That has answered a lot.

So my understanding is since not going to use strategy API - HFT - DMA - Co-Location it doesn't matter
or makes no difference between Symphony - Amibroker - Plugin / or Custom built Amibroker plugin.

So the cheap and best option available is to develop a custom plugin built - to send orders to Nest/ODIN.
This way one need not have any broker restriction - like composite edge - and choose a fixed/flat broker.
No need to get NSE approval/Approval charges/No annual fees/Savings in the brokerage front as well.
And VPS/Internet disconnection part - one can choose other VPS - so not going to make any difference.

Yeah Jahan Bhai was rightly suggesting to get a custom built plugin.:thumb:

 

[alroyraj]

Thanks AlroyRaj.
That has answered a lot.

So my understanding is since not going to use strategy API - HFT - DMA - Co-Location it doesn't matter
or makes no difference between Symphony - Amibroker - Plugin / or Custom built Amibroker plugin.

So the cheap and best option available is to develop a custom plugin built - to send orders to Nest/ODIN.
This way one need not have any broker restriction - like composite edge - and choose a fixed/flat broker.
No need to get NSE approval/Approval charges/No annual fees/Savings in the brokerage front as well.
And VPS/Internet disconnection part - one can choose other VPS - so not going to make any difference.

Yeah Jahan Bhai was rightly suggesting to get a custom built plugin.:thumb:

Yes, if you are confident to state all the requirements you can get it custom built. My friend started with it and it seems to be a never ending list of customisation. In fact if you saw the symphony presto fuse ab you may get a fair idea what is possible.
Considering the amount jahan bhai spent I would it is a decent price.
Only open question is whether all nest versions would support or only nest pulse and if anything needs to be activated. Need to check this with Jahan bhai and pkgmtnl bhai.
I understand it would support though not so sure on the technical nitty gritties (details)

 

[mafialive]

I have taken few demo's of robots result was not good.

1st day i earned INR 1350/- but next I loose INR 1850.

Robots not working good all the time.....

 

[alroyraj]

I have taken few demo's of robots result was not good.

1st day i earned INR 1350/- but next I loose INR 1850.

Robots not working good all the time.....

You need to check if your strategy works if executed without any slippage.
Next check what is the slippage due to delay in placing orders is making the strategy unprofitable.
By default any strategy makes larger losses than profits. You need to tweak the parameters for sl by keeping the stop loss lesser or trailing the profits.
Also dependinv on he strategy on a weekly or monthly if it net profitable you can continue it. Better to paper trade. Sometimes our strategy works perfect on a range bound market and by the time we enter it starts trending.: ) important to know roughly when it fails

 

[edowibawa]

I have taken few demo's of robots result was not good.

1st day i earned INR 1350/- but next I loose INR 1850.

Robots not working good all the time.....

Before you using your EA, you must know well about its characteristics. Don't let it work alone, you must control it.

 

[alroyraj]

Did i really argue ?

Below mentioned are not my views. These are Obsevations and i think you too have come across such views..

Strategy = A+B. ( A is entry/exit rules and B is Phychology/MM )

A famous View : Strategy is important. BUT Trading Discipline/ Money Management or broadly Phychology plays the most important role in trading success.
Trader is not successful because he lacks discipline and MM. When he is perfect in these, he attains success.

Pls tell me your openion on this.

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*When I am on driving seat they say you make accidents because you dont follow driving rules ( No human being can follow 100 rules at one point of time )

*I bought a robot for driving the car ( it follows all rules and has no emotions) but still accidents happen and they say accidents happen because its robot and it cant read human mind which is driving on other side.

I agree, this is not a perfect example but its ok if u read my intent.

Building a system with complete rules would address the criteria of staying faithful to the model. No problems here.

The robot or autotrader would execute the model. The only difference is there is some delay in placing the orders as well as brokerage taxes etc which you might not have factored in while testing the model. For eg recent increase in service tax. At best there is done minor decrease in the profitability assuming a reasonably profitable trend filling system or a breakout system.

We start assuming that the robot would or would not work. A lot depends on how successful with our existing strategies and how far we are able to automate them.

At the very least we all have some fav stocks whose trading behavior we are familiar with. It is best to start with these and once we have gotten the confidence we can extend the model with more stocks and add more strategies.

Algos like I have seen some videos and also confirmed by mechtrader it we need to hsvd a few strategies as a diversified each tested individually and together to confirm it generates alpha or outperformance I.e captures the move.

In day trading we say a good daytrader is one who can capture even 50% of the move in an algorithms not sure what he equivalent Is but at the very least should be the same.