General Trading Chat

[vivektrader]

Dear St Da & other seniors..
We have learnt so many things about entries here in forum..but couldnt discuss more on Exits..If This weekend we can discuss more about exits..I am still not satisfied with my exits..there are so many problem with every exit if we do it objectively..please put some lights on follows:-
a) If we exit on predefined exit point..like if we decide, we will get out at 1:2 ..or we will let hit original sl..so if we put 10 points sl in nifty, we get out taking 20 points..
& there is 2 problem.. 1 is when market goes 100 points or 80 or 60 means more points in your favour after exiting, its very frustating as you took just 20 points
2nd problem is trade goes in your favour but missed 1:2 by just few points..or moves 1:1.5 & you didnt book profit & that trade goes in loss
b) how to know when to hold & when to fold?
sometimes when we put tsl, & it goes in opposite direction & eat our profits..when we booked profit early, it moves in our direction after exiting
c) i dont book Partial profit as my confusion is..suppose we take 10 lots nifty-f..so we take risk on full positions but we take profit on half positions..& if 2nd exit is on BE..profit is half..& even i see put tsl on BE doesnt work..as market can moves in opposite direction till your entry point..
d) when market in not in strong trends..if we put tsl on pl/ph..most of the times, it takes tsl..reduce our profit & then goes in same direction..especially in ong trades

Kindly put some lights on it..in hindsight, we can see exits clearly..but how to make some objective rules for exit..or exit should be subjective depends on trader's screentime & experience
thanks

After we have got trade entries right (i.e. according to our plan, with controlled risk), Trade management probably differentiates a highly successful trader and just about a break even trader or inconsistent trader.
I think it does improve over time, but still any kind of discretion or objective rules one employs there is bound to be some overshoot or undershoot, some trade off.
I am experimenting with a number of rules, trying to put them in a rational manner:
1. If trade moves quickly in my favour and market is strongly one sided i.e. it is trading outside yesterday's or previous two day's range/ST gaps, oscillators persistent in oversold or overbought condition for more than 5 candles:
Its better to trail entire position running, also thinking of adds in the ratio 4:2:1.
Strong trends, it is better to keep position till EOD.
Trailing on pivots, partial profit booking on strong S/R or swing levels, big volumes which kills the move.
2. Trade moves in my direction but progresses slowly, price treading in yesterday's range, more of a sideways, book half at nearest S&R (not fixed 1:1), or middle third of the range, and rest within the range extreme /TDST support/resistance, pinbar/hammer, barbed wire.
3. Trade doesn't move in my direction, I have found a 15minute time stop to be a very effective and objective way to exit before SL is hit.
Also, if a strong close in opposite direction occurs with significant volumes immediately after our entry, we get out.
All methods will have trade-offs, may be consistently following them will lead to better results.




Vivek

 

[vijkris]

@niftytaurus
In my little experience regarding 1:2 -
Only in average trending day 1:2 can be achieved.
if u r missing big moves due to fixed exits, then consider reentries.
If your first trade hits target then consider the move to be a good trending move and the re-entry which u ll take then use tsl.
Tsl must be used for good established trend.
Your 1st trade is just at the start of a trend so take fixed exits as we don know trend will sustain or not.
I m in my hometown now. May not be able to follow this discussion properly.

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

 

[vivektrader]

As ST sir said, he wants this to be healthy discussion and he will join later, I call upon all those who thanked my post to put down their views and ways on trade management.
Please.

Vivek

 

[john302928]

Can any one please help me to reset my password in incometaxefiling site,
I clicked Forgot password option and i see only 3 options. 1. Answer secret question.2 Upload DSC, 3. Using aadhaar OTP
My first question is why am i no able to find any option to reset password via mail or phone number?
note: My aadhaar is not yet linked with my PAN so i cant use the 3 rd option and I forgot my secret answer so i can use the 1 st option as well. I tried the second option and downloaded the DSC managment utility which is with the extension of .jar. but i double clicked that file it is not opening in executable format as stated in the usermanul provided in incometax site. it is opening in zip mode and I am able to view the files inside it.
What should i do? kindly help please

 

[pravi_kanth]

Books for read.

Take a look at @StoicTrader's Tweet: https://twitter.com/StoicTrader/status/495563700640555008?s=09

 

[Smart_trade]

Only 2 traders sharing their views ?

ST

 

[wisp]

Mostly I stick to trailing on pivots unless price is struggling at a support/resistance. However, I feel a fixed point exit, say 15 points in Nifty on half and 25 points BNF on half might be more profitable, haven't tested it out yet.

The problem I have when I dont trail on pivots is if I get out early and price moves in my direction, I end up making more mistakes in entry exits, so sticking to pivots for now unless price closes at S/R. Finally it all comes down to the mindset with which we are trading.

 

[stockoptions]

Dear St Da & other seniors..
We have learnt so many things about entries here in forum..but couldnt discuss more on Exits..If This weekend we can discuss more about exits..I am still not satisfied with my exits..there are so many problem with every exit if we do it objectively..please put some lights on follows:-
a) If we exit on predefined exit point..like if we decide, we will get out at 1:2 ..or we will let hit original sl..so if we put 10 points sl in nifty, we get out taking 20 points..
& there is 2 problem.. 1 is when market goes 100 points or 80 or 60 means more points in your favour after exiting, its very frustating as you took just 20 points
2nd problem is trade goes in your favour but missed 1:2 by just few points..or moves 1:1.5 & you didnt book profit & that trade goes in loss
b) how to know when to hold & when to fold?
sometimes when we put tsl, & it goes in opposite direction & eat our profits..when we booked profit early, it moves in our direction after exiting
c) i dont book Partial profit as my confusion is..suppose we take 10 lots nifty-f..so we take risk on full positions but we take profit on half positions..& if 2nd exit is on BE..profit is half..& even i see put tsl on BE doesnt work..as market can moves in opposite direction till your entry point..
d) when market in not in strong trends..if we put tsl on pl/ph..most of the times, it takes tsl..reduce our profit & then goes in same direction..especially in ong trades

Kindly put some lights on it..in hindsight, we can see exits clearly..but how to make some objective rules for exit..or exit should be subjective depends on trader's screentime & experience
thanks

while you use a system 1:2 risk:reward and a SL of 10 pts, then the target should be 20 pts and nothing obvious with that. Then why do you become worried while the market trends further 40, 80 pts. Be happy with that.

If you want to catch those trending days 100 pts, have another higher timeframe strategy and allocate separate capital, by splitting some capital from what you have now in total.

 

[rkripal]

Hi,

Being a swing trader I prefer trailing stops. It has it's own advantages and sometimes disadvantages. But I guess advantages are much better.

If you book position at predetermined levels, it should min 2x of risk. And at the same time you should exit only half. Personally speaking, being an swing trader I don't believe in predetermined bookings as swing trading gives opportunities for large moves. But for intraday traders story could be different as market moves in a limited price range.

I will give example of my current short trade. Shorted 85xx levels. My method did not give any exit signal bit due to volatility related to US elections and demonetisation, I became greedy and booked half. Now see where it is. Lost great opportunity because used my brain instead of following methods I have been trading for years.

So give time to develop your method, may be a year or two, but once it is done, stick to it religiously.

My views...

 

[TracerBullet]

Dear St Da & other seniors..
We have learnt so many things about entries here in forum..but couldnt discuss more on Exits..If This weekend we can discuss more about exits..I am still not satisfied with my exits..there are so many problem with every exit if we do it objectively..please put some lights on follows:-
a) If we exit on predefined exit point..like if we decide, we will get out at 1:2 ..or we will let hit original sl..so if we put 10 points sl in nifty, we get out taking 20 points..
& there is 2 problem.. 1 is when market goes 100 points or 80 or 60 means more points in your favour after exiting, its very frustating as you took just 20 points
2nd problem is trade goes in your favour but missed 1:2 by just few points..or moves 1:1.5 & you didnt book profit & that trade goes in loss
b) how to know when to hold & when to fold?
sometimes when we put tsl, & it goes in opposite direction & eat our profits..when we booked profit early, it moves in our direction after exiting
c) i dont book Partial profit as my confusion is..suppose we take 10 lots nifty-f..so we take risk on full positions but we take profit on half positions..& if 2nd exit is on BE..profit is half..& even i see put tsl on BE doesnt work..as market can moves in opposite direction till your entry point..
d) when market in not in strong trends..if we put tsl on pl/ph..most of the times, it takes tsl..reduce our profit & then goes in same direction..especially in ong trades

Kindly put some lights on it..in hindsight, we can see exits clearly..but how to make some objective rules for exit..or exit should be subjective depends on trader's screentime & experience
thanks

So i am reading this book and i think that i will now finally turn a corner with a method that suits me. Some options below,

1) Taking partial profits reduces open risk, it will make your returns graph more consistent with less drawdowns. This matters to reduce dependence on luck over a series of trades. Ofcourse, some people are able to trade more aggressively but perhaps this can be looked at once you have established yourself.
Also, it might be easier to use bigger capital this way.

2) To continue above, Consider taking all trades with same risk using position sizing. This way there are no high risk/low risk trades, they are all same.
This makes it easier ( for me atleast ) to use bigger stops and not get taken out by noise. Also, It is preferable to not put initial stop very near a pivot and get shaken out. Once a trade moves, we can reduce open risk.

3) Further one can scale out profits at 1X / 2X our risk point. We can express our confidence in the trade setup by varying the % of position we take out at these points. So a CT trade looking for mean reversion can take out 50% or more at 1X with aggressive handing of rest while in a PB in a strong trend we can take out less at 1X.
Also, can use market structure to adjust these if needed, example if previous high is at 0.9X, then use it.

4) Also, maybe you will be able to manage trade better once you can understand how your setup fails. ie what do failed trades look like - once you see failure patterns you can manage it accordingly. Example, a pullback that goes dead after appearing to turn is hinting at market in balance - there is no edge here anymore. Whereas price giving a good initial SR BO and then consolidating/going dead near the BO point is not failure.

For your questions
a) Take partial profits trailing rest, Also market structure/volatility based stops may work better.
Reduce open risk once a trade moves in your direction. No need to take full loss here. Also if a structural point ( like previous High/Low ) is near use target near it.

If price is failing near previous H/L then maybe its better to exit. But this also depends on how you want to manage your trade. The book i mentioned gives many ways to trade but the author himself primarily looks for 'one clean swing' with not much give back once a trade moves ( and not trailing through multiple swings). You can also use this approach by simply moving Timeframe, so one clean swing in HTF might cover a decent multi swing move in 3min.

b) You cannot optimize for every situation in every trade. Consider using both partial targets and trailing and then manage the trade as the market structure develops.

c) Yes, so same as above, 0.5X profit is better than 0X. Fear and greed can make things confusing, we just want a decent return over a series of trades.

There is no need to be the bestest trader ever and get the bestest outcome in every trade. Again, if you understand how your setups fail you will be able to manage the trade better as new price structure develops.

Another thing i liked from the book is that he looks at multiple scrips and looks for the best place to put your risk. If we have 5 scrips that are candidates for a short PB trade ( say all of them are developing bear flags ) than you can try to pick 1 or 2 that 'look' the best ( using objective rules and some subjectivity) and then manage it as best you can.

d) You will have to decide this after testing, but pivots are prone to be shaken out as many people put their stops there. Better give some space, esp for initial stop. But anyway, you can put stops anywhere, one day market will take them out and continue without you. You can consider rentry rules on something like a CPB ( or treat it as a new trade )