Mistakes I made in the Flow Method

orderflow13

Well-Known Member
Assume that I am ready to risk 2 %.

1) In miniflow should you consider 2% per trade or 2% per day. The max no of trade we should take is 4 and hence shouldn't we do it as 0.5% per trade?

2) Is it advisable to commit profitable trades as fresh capital next day?

3) On a same day if I make profit in 1/2 trades is it ok to increase the position in next trade because my absolute risk in money terms is less because of profit in earlier trade?

4) After opening bell should instrument with higher risk sized low or high? As compared lower risk. Assuming I am trading more than one instrument.
Good point jace, i think first post on money management.I am really curious how other guys managing their MM, i mean we knew the rules but saw lots of scalping 1/3 or adjusting position sizing in accordance with sar.
what u mentioning jace is ok, but for using it in practice we either need advance mm software ( whatever that means, as i am unaware of it ) or some excel spread **** sumthing.But it will make things very complicated during trading.And it will surely affect our trading.Basic downfall is according 2 what u mention ( especially point 3 )is we will force to look at our account now n then, n keeping money above other things is a mistake.
I think if we kept our position as x when sar under 50 and x/2 when sar is above 50.we will do fine.
my entire risk for one day is 1.5 % , few experience traders in flow might be using risk % higher as they hv more confidence, i am on learning steps.
All r only my views n they might be contradictory end erroneous, if so plz correct us likewise.
 

AW10

Well-Known Member
Answer to Money Management questions depends on individuals circumstances. We all have different risk tolerance level.. so there can't be any right or wrong answer. I am expressing my views on these questions keeping in mind how I am handling/will handle them.

1) In miniflow should you consider 2% per trade or 2% per day. The max no of trade we should take is 4 and hence shouldn't we do it as 0.5% per trade?
Generally risk is defined as x% of acct captial per trade. We will never know if there are going to be 4 trades or not, whether they all will hit the max risk or not.. so I would define it as risk per trade. Infact, I also have risk limit for each day (say 4% of acct size), risk limit per week (say 6% of acct size) and monthly limit (say 10% of acct size).
I adjust my position size and reduce risk per trade, if I find that I am closing to any of the higher timeframe risk limits.. It keeps tab on my emotions and lets me be in the game longer. If any of the limit is hit, that means I Am out of synch with the mkt and my strategy is not working. So rather then fighting it further, I take time off for defined number of days/weeks from the mkt. Sort of penalising myself.. I heard in trading floor of investment banks, if a trader looses his monthly limit during the month, then he has to support other trader, get orders from them, bring coffee for them etc.. That humiliation helps everybody trade within the defined boundries . So I have createed similar mechanism for myself.


2) Is it advisable to commit profitable trades as fresh capital next day?
Certainly it makes sense to ride the winner. But make sure that u are adding on at the right entry signal. I will also check if RSI/Stoch are not in OB/OS zone, how long the trend has been in place, any other signs of trend exhaustion like making higher highs but not high enough.. etc

3) On a same day if I make profit in 1/2 trades is it ok to increase the position in next trade because my absolute risk in money terms is less because of profit in earlier trade?
Great question. I also thought that any profit from market can be risked but all other risk mgmt rule applies to my initial capital only. Later on when working on psychology I got different insight into it. Now, my belief is, The money has only one color. Whether it comes from the mkt or from my saving acct.. once it is under my control, it is my money. So I treat any booked profit from mkt as my capital and respect it as if it has come from my saving acct. So it has to follow same rule of risk x% of that on next trade.

Moreover, if you are risking more money on next trade because of last profitable trade, u are signalling to subconscious mind that it is ok to take bigger risk on some trades. That dilutes the importance of whole risk mgmt process. So, if we consistently pass the same message that risk per trade is xxx amt, each trade is mutually exclusive event, doesn't matter what was the outcome of last trade.. .. our subconscious mind is not confused.


4) After opening bell should instrument with higher risk sized low or high? As compared lower risk. Assuming I am trading more than one instrument.
Actually it should not matter whether the trade is high risk /low risk.. as long as your have defined x% of capital per trade as risk. Because capital is known at the start of the day, you very well know the 2% of that in Rs. terms and that should help in deciding the position size.
For ex - Risk per trade is 10000. Risk for new trade (difference between etnry point and stoploss point) = 50 Rs.... so your position size will be 10000/50 = 200 stocks.
If risk for other trade is 40 Rs. then your position size will be = 10000/40 = 250 stocks.
So if u use above logic, then it doesn't matter what is the distance between entry and stop.. because in either case, you are not risking more then 10k on the trade. Only thing that changes is #of stocks that you would buy..

Happy Trading.
 

AW10

Well-Known Member
Good point jace, i think first post on money management.I am really curious how other guys managing their MM, i mean we knew the rules but saw lots of scalping 1/3 or adjusting position sizing in accordance with sar.
what u mentioning jace is ok, but for using it in practice we either need advance mm software ( whatever that means, as i am unaware of it ) or some excel spread **** sumthing.But it will make things very complicated during trading.And it will surely affect our trading.Basic downfall is according 2 what u mention ( especially point 3 )is we will force to look at our account now n then, n keeping money above other things is a mistake.
I think if we kept our position as x when sar under 50 and x/2 when sar is above 50.we will do fine.
my entire risk for one day is 1.5 % , few experience traders in flow might be using risk % higher as they hv more confidence, i am on learning steps.
All r only my views n they might be contradictory end erroneous, if so plz correct us likewise.
Alex, I don't think it is such a complicated matter that will need a software on real time basis. The way I handle it is = my month start capital is say 100000. So my per trade risk @2% is 2k, my daily risk limit @4% is 4k and so on.
Its up to us to define the frequency to change this limit. Do we want to increase it by Rs 100 as soon as our acct accumulates 5k of profit.. or we define a limit that we will revisit these limits only when acct size grows by 25k or 50k. or we can define a frequency say weekly /monthly etc to revisit these limits.
Infact for futures / options trader, it is lot more simple because they just have to work the risk per contract.. because position has to be in terms of contract.

I know it can get complicated, if we want to do it 100% perfect but is there anything 100% perfect in trading world ? so I try to keep my trading as simple as possible.

Looking forward for others view.
Happy Trading.
 
Money management is not just about fixed fractions like 2%, 4%, etc.. but it has a lot to also do with the kind of trading strategy that is being used.. No trading strategy/system is complete w/o appropriate money management system designed to be used with that trading system.

Things like the max drawdown, max number of continuous loosing trades, max number of continuous winning trades, average loosing trade size, average winning trade size, max winning/loosing trades, etc will differ for each type of strategy and no money management rule will be complete w/o having these factors taken into consideration for a given strategy/system. It is also very important to make a list of worst case scenarios for any kind of system/strategy that you use, so that those can also be factored in when designing the money management for the system. For the mini flow, i would consider separete money management rules for each different scrip that i would trade, as each instrument has a different character..

One can also consider limits where one would stop trading and limits at which one would reduce/increase position size.

Finally, it is worth keeping in mind that while you need a strategy with a positive expectancy to make money, money management is what really makes you money, so this is something that you need to consider very carefully when doing any kind of backtesting of a method..

As a starting, 2% risk per trade is a good guideline, but if you are doing day trading with a system like the mini flow, where there is a good possiblity of having days with 2-3 stopped out trades and 2-3 such days one after the other, you are easily looking at a drawdown of 15-20% in a span of a week.. And you can easily hit higher drawdown figures w/o much effort!

-- no1lives4ever
 

AW10

Well-Known Member
Well said about system evaluation, no1lives4ever .
While evaluating a system, one has to look at the results like average drawdown, average loss, and see if it meets the risk appetite of the trader. That means, does it fit within 2%/4%, 10k per trade risk limit etc or not.. If not then probably this system is not meant for him..
It is important to find the system that suits ones personality, risk appetite (ofcourse it has to have +ive expectancy).. . It is not that we need to fit ourselves to given system.
If we adjust to the system, then we are going against basic nature and sooner or later, we will find it difficult to live with this system.

It is important to assess if the system fits the trader or not. Otherwise reject the system. Thats why most of the professionals suggest to first work on self analysis before jumping into the science side of trading.

I compare it to being pushed to spend a day with person whom I don't like because of we have very different personality and being with a person who fits very well with my personality.

Happy Trading.
 

TFL

Well-Known Member
Alex,

Today I have went long @ 2926 + 14.
I considered my entry because of the below reason described in the below chart. Should I kept the entry at days high+room? Please brief...


Hari.
 
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orderflow13

Well-Known Member
hari i took the trade using moving filter, my entry was 2924+14 = 2938 ( in my chart 30 min tf was 2924 ) few guys got long on day high , at ur entry 60 min bar was not supporting the move
 

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