How gap-ups or downs are created in NIFTY futures?

DanPickUp

Well-Known Member
#41
Dan, Maybe there are guys who do not understand chaos theory but make money, while there may be others guys - who understand chaos theory but do not make any.

:)

Intellectual debate is never ending as two people are looking at the same thing - but from a different viewpoint. Some may say that there is no such thing as darkness - it is only absence of light... some will prefer to say the glass if half full, and other half empty. A smart trader, will however take the glass, and drink the water or beer (choose your pick) - and switch on the light to dispel the darkness and let the debate go on....

Cheers, and have a great weekend.
@DSM

You are absolutely right and my post should not be taken as an affront against that kind of thoughts.

Take care and thanks to Toocool to come up with such out of the box stuff.

DanPickUp
 

toocool

Well-Known Member
#42
@toocool

What I meant is its not chaos or random or unexpected event.


my version of NIFTY UNIVERSE goes something like this:
Todays fall is not collective action of million traders but by half-a-dozen big guys.
Looking at the sharp fall, I feel its well planned event.

I think these guys who squared off their big long position today *KNEW* today's RBI results yesterday,
exploited the FEDs good news to build a fabulous short position yesterday.

you might say hind sight is 20-20... and any one can fit a story for the events,
but look at the rapid fall of prices eating through the order book...
It requires deliberate planned assault on bulls with enough fire power.

If you are a big guy with enough fire power how dumb should you be to liquidate so foolishly in one single go as hastily as possible,
unless you have 5 times bigger short position waiting to turn into profits!

----
Simultaneously I agree all the gaps you mentioned in DJI could be totally a natural phenomenon... but that doesn't eliminate the possibility of above story.
just like death is a natural phenomenon but some times murder could be well planned and appear as natural death!.
----

well, is today's event a murder or natural death!?
am biased towards murder bcoz of the *ultra quick* *steep* and *powerful move*...

It could be just a natural move too !
dot-com bubble, real-estate bubble, subprime bubble... these are natural ones,
because they all have classic bubble phases and bubble pop phases... but today's
move looks like a ninja move assault towards bull!

----
I could be wrong and paranoid... but am just sharing my thoughts.
rumors and prior knowledge about the coming events and its results is as old news as the markets itself , i am not sure what some people might knew about yesterdays event but yes its completely possible that atleast some people knew ............................so what , it happens in the markets everyday , even a very very small trader can make it that at "face value" the outcome of the event was against the most participants expectations , and even retail traders along with the institutional people were disappointed.

i still remember that one day when i was one stupid trader , sitting glued to my screen with tv on and listening to udayan mukharjee , just moments before the the policy , he had this peculiar question all the time just asked to the guest if rbi policy is positive or negative what would be markets like and i heard that day that if "such" happens it would be positive .................................and the policy is announced and the policy is exactly bullish as the guests were talking about and probably even better , i punch in the order , i take some time i bought nifty future in some 2 seconds , generally markets do not take this long to discount the news , and i got my nifty bought just at the current prices , as my nifty is bought , .....................................the next tick is 30 points in my favor .....................the point i am making is that these days even a dumb person knows what one "should" expect as a reaction to the news ..............everybody knew as soon as the policy came that it was way beyond anybody had expected , and hence the reaction .not only that , i am sure you have lstened the adage buy the rumor sell the news , i would say even if rbi had done a positive announcement , even then there was strong chances of the participants taking profits after a 1000 points rally and 200 point down move on profit booking can happen , i dont have any doubts about that

but a prior knowledge of the event put the big guys is so controlling position ? i refuse to accept that . its against the open possibility aspect of the markets for me , just find me 3-4 major news days when markets did exactly what it was supposed to do after the favorable/unfavorable news .....................and i will find you 10-15 examples when even after the favorable news/unfavorable news , markets did just the opposite of the initial reaction , on the same day or in the same week .

you are giving so much power to the all mighty big guys , that you forgot that there are around 1000 fii's registered in india and dii must also be almost half that number , and even if a dozen of big guys knew it , you are not ready to account for rest of the big lot , who might be in equal power if combined and had they seen the policy from different perspective , they can cancel the shorts and start buying (if they wanted) .................no worries , markets will give live examples sooner than later and we will discuss that .

cheers
 
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toocool

Well-Known Member
#43
and chaos can never be found on the daily weekly charts , you have to see with a microscope to see it .............that is tick data charts is where the chaos is found , where its impossible to make any sense of it really , and unless the time frame is extended there is no clear pattern is visible .

so my understanding of chaos is that.................however chaos means randomness but its way beyond that , chaos is actually a higher order of things which can only be made sense from the far and not the near .............chaos always leads to some patterns when seen from far

the chaotic nature of the markets is below





only a trader of markets can understand this .......................ask even a 5 minute chart trader to try to trade/make money on tick data charts , and probably he will be in sweat in no time
 

DSM

Well-Known Member
#45
Sir, Tuse great ho! Loved reading all your post. And as I said before, look forward to any thread you create.

rumors and prior knowledge about the coming events and its results is as old news as the markets itself , i am not sure what some people might knew about yesterdays event but yes its completely possible that atleast some people knew ............................so what , it happens in the markets everyday , even a very very small trader can make it that at "face value" the outcome of the event was against the most participants expectations , and even retail traders along with the institutional people were disappointed.

i still remember that one day when i was one stupid trader , sitting glued to my screen with tv on and listening to udayan mukharjee , just moments before the the policy , he had this peculiar question all the time just asked to the guest if rbi policy is positive or negative what would be markets like and i heard that day that if "such" happens it would be positive .................................and the policy is announced and the policy is exactly bullish as the guests were talking about and probably even better , i punch in the order , i take some time i bought nifty future in some 2 seconds , generally markets do not take this long to discount the news , and i got my nifty bought just at the current prices , as my nifty is bought , .....................................the next tick is 30 points in my favor .....................the point i am making is that these days even a dumb person knows what one "should" expect as a reaction to the news ..............everybody knew as soon as the policy came that it was way beyond anybody had expected , and hence the reaction .not only that , i am sure you have lstened the adage buy the rumor sell the news , i would say even if rbi had done a positive announcement , even then there was strong chances of the participants taking profits after a 1000 points rally and 200 point down move on profit booking can happen , i dont have any doubts about that

but a prior knowledge of the event put the big guys is so controlling position ? i refuse to accept that . its against the open possibility aspect of the markets for me , just find me 3-4 major news days when markets did exactly what it was supposed to do after the favorable/unfavorable news .....................and i will find you 10-15 examples when even after the favorable news/unfavorable news , markets did just the opposite of the initial reaction , on the same day or in the same week .

you are giving so much power to the all mighty big guys , that you forgot that there are around 1000 fii's registered in india and dii must also be almost half that number , and even if a dozen of big guys knew it , you are not ready to account for rest of the big lot , who might be in equal power if combined and had they seen the policy from different perspective , they can cancel the shorts and start buying (if they wanted) .................no worries , markets will give live examples sooner than later and we will discuss that .

cheers
 

DanPickUp

Well-Known Member
#46
@Toocool

Now looking at your charts, posted in post 43 and not in the once from post 36, at least to me it starts to make sense in a certain way about what you interestingly started to post. (and chaos can never be found on the daily weekly charts , you have to see with a microscope to see it)

Hope to see more from you like also DSM is asking for. But first: Please enjoy your weekend.

Take care / DanPickUp
 

toocool

Well-Known Member
#47
@toocool
you are like psychotherapist for a paranoid trader :)
am like paranoid trader driving psychotherapist nuts !

Thanks for your input and charts, toocool !

Even if one has all the fire power to manipulate the market,
he would never overstep the most liquid regions such channel boundaries,
long time frame support and resistance. The reason for this is simple
its not profitable to plow further burning your money as you already
got the required liquidity at the boundaries!

So a good manipulation should respect traditional TA and price boundaries,
except the moves should ultra fast to keep the trapped ones trapped and
intelligent ones away from the move!

So today's action will always appear as a subset of natural TA move ;)
one more note: I don't believe news events cause the move...
big guys just use big events to plan their move.... its just correlation most of the time not causation.
-----------


found it just for you buddy :thumb: please go through it , its an excerpt from the "trading in the zone" by Mark Douglas . read it and your will allow yourself a big favor

technical analysis has been here for quite sometime now ................people have experimented and found some kind of behavior which takes place more often then not , BUT THAT BEHAVIOR CAN NEVER BE CALLED UNBREAKABLE , thats why TA is not exact science because the support and resistances hold a lot of times but they DO NOT hold a lot of times too .

you said that at long support resistances(you mean at important support ,resistances ), with even more than enough fire power at hand , the so called big guys will not go over board ? why will they stop ? so they also defined the technical analysis itself ? and they personally taught the millions of traders the basic of technical analysis ? and infact they made it a law ,which defines important supports/resistances as unbreakable laws of physics of trading? will they hunt traders down and kill them if trader violated the support and resistance ? is it punishable by death? because since they made it and they will not break it no one can? and they will decide whats the most stupid supports /resistances and break it because they are amused that the exist?

who will define those long supports and residences? what is the meaning of long here? how long? you mean century long? decade long ? or just 2-8 years long? and how is that places are defined by who? prices or your big guys? you also meant that defined by your time frame , the big guys break all the time frames supports/Resistance except that ultimate one?

do you know that technical analysis is more art than science ? because basically it has no boundaries it cannot be bound in some books and some words because its so so dynamic in nature ? it can only be observed and that observation value mostly (but not compulsory )lasts only few years at max , because the participants , the markets , the way the traders react to markets , the technology , the system ,the algo trading softwares , the rules of the game as made by the exchanges ...........................keep changing every every every day .

do you know its completely possible that some great mind .......who could be anyone in this world can create a new kind of technical analysis , not yet thought about ,and make it profitable , not letting anybody else know about it but himself ......................thats what technical analysis is all about .

and in the last i am eager to know , do you have some fii links ? who told you all of this information? atleast tell me how your thought process made you believe that all your beliefs are true fact? i mean how do you know it ?

There can be an extreme diversity of beliefs present in any given market in any given moment, making
virtually anything possible. When we look at the market from this perspective, it's easy to see that
every potential trader who is willing to express his belief about the future becomes a market variable.
On a more personal level, this means that it only takes one other trader, anywhere in the world, to
negate the positive potential of your trade. Put another way, it takes only one other trader to negate
what you believe about what is high or what is low. That's all, only one! Here's an example to illustrate
this point. Several years ago, a trader came to me for help. He was an excellent market analyst; in fact,
he was one of the best I've ever met. But after years of frustration during which he lost all his money
and a lot of other people's money, he was finally ready to admit that, as a trader, he left a lot to be
desired. After talking to him for a while, I determined that a number of serious psychological obstacles
were preventing him from being successful.
One of the most troublesome obstacles was that he was a know-it-all and extremely arrogant, making it
impossible for him to achieve the degree of mental flexibility required to trade effectively. It didn't
matter how good an analyst he was. When he came to me, he was so desperate for money and help that
he was willing to consider anything. The first suggestion I made was that instead of looking for another
investor to back what ultimately would be another failed attempt at trading, he would be better off
taking a job, doing something he was truly good at. He could be paid a steady income while working
through his problems, and at the same time provide someone with a worthwhile service. He took my
advice and quickly found a position as a technical analyst with a fairly substantial brokerage house and
clearing firm in Chicago.
The semiretired chairman of the board of the brokerage firm was a longtime trader with nearly 40 years
of experience in the grain pits at the Chicago Board of Trade. He didn't know much about technical
analysis, because he never needed it to make money on the floor. But he no longer traded on the floor
and found the transition to trading from a screen difficult and somewhat mysterious. So he asked the
firm's newly acquired star technical analyst to sit with him during the trading day and teach him
technical trading. The new hire jumped at the opportunity to show off his abilities to such an
experienced and successful trader. The analyst was using a method called "point and line," developed
by Charlie Drummond. (Among other things, point and line can accurately define support and
resistance.) One day, as the two of them were watching the soybean market together, the analyst had
projected major support and resistance points and the market happened to be trading between these two
points.
As the technical analyst was explaining to the chairman the significance of these two points, he stated
in very emphatic, almost absolute terms that if the market goes up to resistance, it will stop and reverse;
and if the market goes down to support, it will also stop and reverse. Then he explained that if the
market went down to the price level he calculated as support, his calculations indicated that would also
be the low of the day. As they sat there, the bean market was slowly trending down to the price the
analyst said would be the support, or low, of the day. When it finally got there, the chairman looked
over to the analyst and said, "This is where the market is supposed to stop and go higher, right?"
The analyst responded, "Absolutely! This is the low of the day." "That's bullshit!" the chairman
retorted. "Watch this." He picked up the phone, called one of the clerks handling orders for the soybean
pit, and said, "Sell two million beans (bushels) at the market." Within thirty seconds after he placed the
order, the soybean market dropped ten cents a bushel. The chairman turned to look at the horrified
expression on the analysts face. Calmly, he asked, "Now, where did you say the market was going to
stop? If I can do that, anyone can."
The point is that from our own individual perspective as observers of the market, anything can happen,
and it takes only one trader to do it. This is the hard, cold reality of trading that only the very best
traders have embraced and accepted with no internal conflict.
 
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onlinegtrash

Well-Known Member
#49
found it just for you buddy :thumb: please go through it , its an excerpt from the "trading in the zone" by Mark Douglas . read it and your will allow yourself a big favor

technical analysis has been here for quite sometime now ................people have experimented and found some kind of behavior which takes place more often then not , BUT THAT BEHAVIOR CAN NEVER BE CALLED UNBREAKABLE , thats why TA is not exact science because the support and resistances hold a lot of times but they DO NOT hold a lot of times too .

you said that at long support resistances(you mean at important support ,resistances ), with even more than enough fire power at hand , the so called big guys will not go over board ? why will they stop ? so they also defined the technical analysis itself ? and they personally taught the millions of traders the basic of technical analysis ? and infact they made it a law ,which defines important supports/resistances as unbreakable laws of physics of trading? will they hunt traders down and kill them if trader violated the support and resistance ? is it punishable by death? because since they made it and they will not break it no one can? and they will decide whats the most stupid supports /resistances and break it because they are amused that the exist?

who will define those long supports and residences? what is the meaning of long here? how long? you mean century long? decade long ? or just 2-8 years long? and how is that places are defined by who? prices or your big guys? you also meant that defined by your time frame , the big guys break all the time frames supports/Resistance except that ultimate one?

do you know that technical analysis is more art than science ? because basically it has no boundaries it cannot be bound in some books and some words because its so so dynamic in nature ? it can only be observed and that observation value mostly (but not compulsory )lasts only few years at max , because the participants , the markets , the way the traders react to markets , the technology , the system ,the algo trading softwares , the rules of the game as made by the exchanges ...........................keep changing every every every day .

do you know its completely possible that some great mind .......who could be anyone in this world can create a new kind of technical analysis , not yet thought about ,and make it profitable , not letting anybody else know about it but himself ......................thats what technical analysis is all about .

and in the last i am eager to know , do you have some fii links ? who told you all of this information? atleast tell me how your thought process made you believe that all your beliefs are true fact? i mean how do you know it ?
Hi Toocool...

Thanks for the detailed reply! You do help me to see the world with different eyes! Thanks!

Regarding FII links... I know Obama, Ben Bernanke and few more but am not sure they know me!

Regarding the thought process... how my mind comes up with these stories:
Its side effect of all the Sherlock Holmes stories I ve read :),
few stories of stock-operator-manipulation from "Reminiscences of a Stock Operator"
and few videos on "Volume Spread Analysis" I have watched.
do a youtube search for : "VSA manipulation"

I already agree most of things you say!
 

toocool

Well-Known Member
#50
Hi Toocool...

Thanks for the detailed reply! You do help me to see the world with different eyes! Thanks!

Regarding FII links... I know Obama, Ben Bernanke and few more but am not sure they know me!

Regarding the thought process... how my mind comes up with these stories:
Its side effect of all the Sherlock Holmes stories I ve read :),
few stories of stock-operator-manipulation from "Reminiscences of a Stock Operator"
and few videos on "Volume Spread Analysis" I have watched.
do a youtube search for : "VSA manipulation"

I already agree most of things you say!
i think i talked in a bit too harsh of a language , sorry for that , but bro these are the facts , you cannot trade in the markets if there is always a "sword" of manipulation is hanging inside your head . you cannot have both your legs in different boats , it will leave you no where ,because both go in different directions , and you will be left in the water most of the times

i searched for vsa and saw a video about manipulation , and the guy is confused about algo trading for manipulation

see,algo is the fact of the trading universe now ,you cannot deny it , but the way these guys/you are saying things about manipulation , its part of the game for ages (not algo) i mean,there has been rumours in 1930-40 when Jesse livermore lived and there was inside trading then and now ,there were prior info always because of company MD,CEO, and what not leaking info to their son , son in laws and what not , what the hell is new into this ....................this has been an integral part of the trading since the dawn of the markets , only algo is somewhat new thing , but the way i see it is that , suppose if they do it within the laws ,then its already built in nature of the markets , i know they break laws all the time but still there is always a buyer for a seller and vice versa , unless they FAKE THE TURNOVER , i think its still fits the nature of the trading game , it may take out small time frame people ,shake them out yes , but it cannot change the trend whatever it is .

watch this and think about this

http://www.traderji.com/trading-dia...-technical-analysis-toocool-6.html#post868382
 
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