Option Buy Recomendations

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Hello Friends,

I got a few PMs yesterday from our fellow colleagues asking me to give a live-commentary on how the system has been working. I am going to use today's day to provide the same.

I would like to 1st say that this system is so new that its no use to judge it so fast. So anyone reading this for guidance should not use this system as proof. This is just something I put together keeping my risk profile and aims in mind. I have borrowed a lot of advice from Ghosh Sir and Dan on this forum. They have helped me a lot , as has various OPTIONS guides. I did give myself 1 month to just study options to understand the greeks etc.

So , please do not use this system as any proof - its just my effort and it can also fail :)...With that out of the way, here is my day and how it panned out.

Ground work for the day

1. Check Ghosh Sir's resistance and support levels to approximately understand the range for the day.

2. Check if any news is due today - Bajaj Auto results (Important for NIFTY)

3. Check global cues (though they are a bit irrelevant currently, but I just want to keep that habit up)

Market opening

I follow Ghosh Sir's principle to decide what trend I want to follow for that day - Today's trend was down, for obvious reasons. Markets fell from the top and stayed down for a while.

System signals

A Buy was generated around 10:15 ish. I was busy with some work (I have to keep a look at that too, its a startup so I cant ignore) so I choose to ignore it. My mind was pre-occupied plus I was wanting to wait till bajaj auto results hit the tape. I was still thinking bearish today due to the opening and how things were till 10:30.

Bajaj auto results disappointed and so did their press conference w.r.t guidance. Markets started coming off from 5740.

Trade 1

Here I use the classical top-bottom formation to get into the trade. Lower tops lower bottoms and I bought the JAN 5800 PE @ 101 approximately. Then I think I was just lucky, the market tanked. Within 10 minutes the call was at
130 levels. CLosed the call on the biggest UP candle.

Trade 2

Now the bearish trend was very clear, and since I had taken profits, I wanted to find another entry point on the downside. Now the same logic was applied. top-bottom formation. But this time I did not wait for 3 tops - 3 bottoms. For my 1st trade of the day I want to confirm the trend so I enter on the 3rd such formation. Thats just my system, it fails to catch some signals also, but this give me comfort that the trade I enter does not suddenly reverse.

Anyways - at this point I was looking at how the pullbacks were, they are not strong so on the 2nd lower top I shorted again. Bought the same 5800 PE call at 127 and then closed at 146. Closed on pullback signs. Pullbacks were failing.

Trade 3

Still an hour of trade to go - and trend is firmly down, pullbacks were failing. I had taken good profits on 2 trades. Remember the support for the day was already broken. When such steep fall happens, the pullback has to be equally fierce and strong , it wasn't. So I was encouraged to take the final day trade on the downside. I didn't want a big trade so I just took 4 lots this time. So again using the same logic , 2nd break below and I went short.

Bought the same 5800 JAN PE @ 137.4 and closed at 150. I had initially wantd to close at 148, but I cancelled that order seeing that pullback was again failing. But I was afraid so I soon closed the call at 150. The day high for the call was around 155 I think.

So thats the commentary for the trades.

I've attached both the chart and the trade sheet. Please bear with me that I've again attached and given links. I'm sorry if this is inconvenient. I promise that later times I will use tools that are more easy for you.

day ended with some 60 points gains.

MY SYSTEM IS NOT PROVEN
IN the end I want to say that - This is a UNTESTED SYSTEM - just 1 month of dry runs and 3 days of real-time tests does not make a system. I think I have been very very lucky for these 3 days. Please do not take this as any proof of success. I am just telling you how I think since you guys asked me.

There are more senior guys on the forum who have been doing this for years (Ghosh Sir and Dan are the guys you should go to for your help and advice). I am learning and using their advice to build my system. I promise you to share my failures as and when they come, because they are inevitable.

Sorry for such a long post :).


The chart here (there is a typo in the chart - calls are 5800 PE, not 5600 PE)

http://img155.imageshack.us/i/realtimetest19thjanopti.jpg/
 

DanPickUp

Well-Known Member
Hello Friends,

I got a few PMs yesterday from our fellow colleagues asking me to give a live-commentary on how the system has been working. I am going to use today's day to provide the same.

I would like to 1st say that this system is so new that its no use to judge it so fast. So anyone reading this for guidance should not use this system as proof. This is just something I put together keeping my risk profile and aims in mind. I have borrowed a lot of advice from Ghosh Sir and Dan on this forum. They have helped me a lot , as has various OPTIONS guides. I did give myself 1 month to just study options to understand the greeks etc.

So , please do not use this system as any proof - its just my effort and it can also fail :)...With that out of the way, here is my day and how it panned out.

Ground work for the day

1. Check Ghosh Sir's resistance and support levels to approximately understand the range for the day.

2. Check if any news is due today - Bajaj Auto results (Important for NIFTY)

3. Check global cues (though they are a bit irrelevant currently, but I just want to keep that habit up)

Market opening

I follow Ghosh Sir's principle to decide what trend I want to follow for that day - Today's trend was down, for obvious reasons. Markets fell from the top and stayed down for a while.

System signals

A Buy was generated around 10:15 ish. I was busy with some work (I have to keep a look at that too, its a startup so I cant ignore) so I choose to ignore it. My mind was pre-occupied plus I was wanting to wait till bajaj auto results hit the tape. I was still thinking bearish today due to the opening and how things were till 10:30.

Bajaj auto results disappointed and so did their press conference w.r.t guidance. Markets started coming off from 5740.

Trade 1

Here I use the classical top-bottom formation to get into the trade. Lower tops lower bottoms and I bought the JAN 5800 PE @ 101 approximately. Then I think I was just lucky, the market tanked. Within 10 minutes the call was at
130 levels. CLosed the call on the biggest UP candle.

Trade 2

Now the bearish trend was very clear, and since I had taken profits, I wanted to find another entry point on the downside. Now the same logic was applied. top-bottom formation. But this time I did not wait for 3 tops - 3 bottoms. For my 1st trade of the day I want to confirm the trend so I enter on the 3rd such formation. Thats just my system, it fails to catch some signals also, but this give me comfort that the trade I enter does not suddenly reverse.

Anyways - at this point I was looking at how the pullbacks were, they are not strong so on the 2nd lower top I shorted again. Bought the same 5800 PE call at 127 and then closed at 146. Closed on pullback signs. Pullbacks were failing.

Trade 3

Still an hour of trade to go - and trend is firmly down, pullbacks were failing. I had taken good profits on 2 trades. Remember the support for the day was already broken. When such steep fall happens, the pullback has to be equally fierce and strong , it wasn't. So I was encouraged to take the final day trade on the downside. I didn't want a big trade so I just took 4 lots this time. So again using the same logic , 2nd break below and I went short.

Bought the same 5800 JAN PE @ 137.4 and closed at 150. I had initially wantd to close at 148, but I cancelled that order seeing that pullback was again failing. But I was afraid so I soon closed the call at 150. The day high for the call was around 155 I think.

So thats the commentary for the trades.

I've attached both the chart and the trade sheet. Please bear with me that I've again attached and given links. I'm sorry if this is inconvenient. I promise that later times I will use tools that are more easy for you.

day ended with some 60 points gains.

MY SYSTEM IS NOT PROVEN
IN the end I want to say that - This is a UNTESTED SYSTEM - just 1 month of dry runs and 3 days of real-time tests does not make a system. I think I have been very very lucky for these 3 days. Please do not take this as any proof of success. I am just telling you how I think since you guys asked me.

There are more senior guys on the forum who have been doing this for years (Ghosh Sir and Dan are the guys you should go to for your help and advice). I am learning and using their advice to build my system. I promise you to share my failures as and when they come, because they are inevitable.

Sorry for such a long post :).


The chart here (there is a typo in the chart - calls are 5800 PE, not 5600 PE)

http://img155.imageshack.us/i/realtimetest19thjanopti.jpg/
Hi TJ

Just go on as you do. Chart technique so far is not complicated and that should stay like that. There is no more easy for that.

Your entries and exits are not executed in real market, as far as I understand. Is this right ?

One point I saw and asked my self : The quantity per trade you us. How do you decide about this amounts ? I may missed the post, but I never was reading in detail some thing about how you choose that. A very important, if not one of the most important points in your system.

:)DanPickUp
 
Hi TJ

Just go on as you do. Chart technique so far is not complicated and that should stay like that. There is no more easy for that.

Your entries and exits are not executed in real market, as far as I understand. Is this right ?

One point I saw and asked my self : The quantity per trade you us. How do you decide about this amounts ? I may missed the post, but I never was reading in detail some thing about how you choose that. A very important, if not one of the most important points in your system.

:)DanPickUp
Hi Dan,

These are real time trades with real money. The attached pdf files are directly exported from my trading system and uploaded here :)

How do I decide the position size ? Its based on how much I am comfortable losing if that one trade completely goes to zero (though I won't let that happen with stoploss). Currently the amount I am comfortable with is 50k. So each trade is around 30-35k. Thats how I decide 6 lots of 4 lots.

Stoploss is calculated similarly, but also to give the trade time to move. Too small SL wont work for options isnce they move so much.

So thats how I'm managing money and risk :) The total money I'm using on Options is around 4%-5% of my total capital at hand.

Any thoughts or suggestions :) ?

Thanks,
TJ
 

DanPickUp

Well-Known Member
Hi Dan,

These are real time trades with real money. The attached pdf files are directly exported from my trading system and uploaded here :)

How do I decide the position size ? Its based on how much I am comfortable losing if that one trade completely goes to zero (though I won't let that happen with stoploss). Currently the amount I am comfortable with is 50k. So each trade is around 30-35k. Thats how I decide 6 lots of 4 lots.

Stoploss is calculated similarly, but also to give the trade time to move. Too small SL wont work for options isnce they move so much.

So thats how I'm managing money and risk :) The total money I'm using on Options is around 4%-5% of my total capital at hand.

Any thoughts or suggestions :) ?

Thanks,
TJ
Thats fine, thanks, as you really not use a lot from your capital for option trading. :thumb:
 

ghosh_ak34

Well-Known Member
Dear Friends,

For Nifty Future traders who would like to trade as per trend check strategy posted in 1st post of the thread, Nifty levels for tomorrow are as under:

Resistance at 5750
Support at 5630

If you go short 1 lot then, buy 1 lot at money or near money call and if you go long 1 lot then, buy 1 lot at money or near money put to hedge. Reco. to trade as per trend check strategy posted in 1st post of this thread.

Regards
 
Dear Friends,

For Nifty Future traders who would like to trade as per trend check strategy posted in 1st post of the thread, Nifty levels for tomorrow are as under:

Resistance at 5750
Support at 5630

If you go short 1 lot then, buy 1 lot at money or near money call and if you go long 1 lot then, buy 1 lot at money or near money put to hedge. Reco. to trade as per trend check strategy posted in 1st post of this thread.

Regards

Hi,
I am holding feb 5200 puts at 44 now its 26 should i book loss or continue to hold, plz advice.
 
Yesterday I heard on TV that Daryl Guppy has a target of 5200 for nifty.. don't know the time frame.
Most of the time, the market moves just opposite what analysts or crowd is expecting it to do. Market will always surprise everyone. Expect the unexpected from market
 
Hi,
I am holding feb 5200 puts at 44 now its 26 should i book loss or continue to hold, plz advice.
Let me try to answer this question so that it also clarifies my understanding. Would love to get Ghosh Sir's view too, generally on buying deep OTM options.

Before I try to explain - my short answer to your question is.

Cut your losses if that premium worries you. If you can afford to lose all of that premium, hold the call.

I don't think 5200 is even remotely likely and given how time decay will come into the picture, for you to get back at 44 would need the market to fall and swing even more than when you actually bought the PUT at 44.

After every 10 days or so, the call loses its intrinsic value by 25-28%. What does this mean ? The more time market spends in the current range (5600-5800) the faster your call will lose its value. You will also face problems of huge spreads as the call gets illiquid.

No one has a crystal ball to predict how the FEB series will end. But think about what you are betting on. 5200 ? Thats a 10% fall in 1 month.
Now why is that unlikely ? Consider the fundamentals - Indian market - even if it sees earnings compression from 19X to 15X - it will get - re-rated to 5500. For it to get down to 5200 you need the Indian markets to tank. Given that results are average to above average I do not see this happening atall.

- To understand what the range is , one has to observe what the call and put writers are doing. What are the most active calls that are been written. Broadly that forms the range. Currently not even the 5400 call is active. My understanding is on the lower side 5500 is the extreme (based on put call writing activity). In the very near term the markets may bounce on shot covering close to expiry next week, this will kill your call's intrinsic value further.

I sense a level of desperation in your PUT purchase here. Are you expecting a 100%-200% return from this PUT ? Seems like that to me, because if you would have purchased a slightly ATM or ITM PUT (5700 PUT and 5800 PUTs) you would have easily made 50% this week and what more, if markets still tank (which is what you ar ebetting on) your current 5700-5800 PUTs would be DEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEPLY in the money.

Options trading is a beast that will kill you if you dont understand the details. Its not just trading a security and direction, you are also trading volatility, time, interest rates and then their rate of change.

Sorry , I do not wish to sound harsh - but this is the harsh reality, if you are not comfortable losing that premium then you should not have taken the trade in the 1st place atall.
 
Dear Friends,

As promised - I'm reporting my 1st losing trade after having had 9 winners. I took 3 trades today , the 1st was a loser.

The details.

Contract Descriptor--------------------- Action----- Qty-------Price#---------Value
OPT-NIFTY -27-Jan-2011-5600-CE-I------Sell------- 300-------136.00--------40,800.00
OPT-NIFTY -27-Jan-2011-5600-CE-I------Buy-------300-------95.58---------28,674.00
OPT-NIFTY -27-Jan-2011-5800-PE-I------Sell------- 300-------171.45--------51,435.00
OPT-NIFTY -27-Jan-2011-5800-PE-I------Buy------- 300-------151.65--------45,495.00
OPT-NIFTY -27-Jan-2011-5600-CE-I------Sell------- 200-------88.10---------17,620.00
OPT-NIFTY -27-Jan-2011-5600-CE-I------Buy-------200-------101.55--------20,310.00

Overall points for today

1st trade lost - 13 points
2nd trade won - 20 points
3rd trade own - 45 points

overall day - 53 points.
The chart and the rules as I applied are here




Overall comments

- My system seems to be working on a timeframe of 1-2 hours. Or thats how I'm capturing the trades. It would be interesting to see how the system might apply to positional trades over days. I think the rules are same, just a different timeframe.

Thanks,
TJ
 
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