discretionary vs mechanical trading systems

augubhai

Well-Known Member
#11
Just for the heck of it and for sake of debate, I'd say that all mechanical systems must have a discretionary system embedded within.

Conversely, all discretionary system run manually by a trader is just another mechanical system in which the trader is just a mechanical system's component!!!

In a well designed mechanical version, trader's ability to think/see/interfere is severely limited. In latter, most important thing that impacts profitability, the most essential trait of the trader's is to "act without thinking".

If I was going to ultimately build a mechanical system, I'd much rather have a Gigahertz computer than me doing the grunt work!!

I have fully automated developed mechanical system that is based on Gann/Fibonacci system and all I have to do was turn machine ON at 9AM and walk away. This worked nicely for 2 months but in 3 days, market asserted itself and ruthlessly trapped the system wiping out fair chunk of profits.
Right now, I am firmly in the mechanical trading camp. I think that if a discretionary system is a "system" at all, then it should be possible to turn it into a mechanical system. http://www.traderji.com/trading-diary/88102-bakwaas-trading-4.html#post829863

My father still believes that his tailor stitches better clothes than the readymades available in shops. But look at the effort and skill involved in buying, measuring and stitching the cloth. And you also need the expert tailor to do the work, else the result may not be better than the readymades.

On the other hand, the readymades are made by machinery and unskilled/semi-skilled workers. The skill part has been captured in processes and machines that can repeatedly produce the dresses more efficiently without expert supervision, and in volumes unimaginable by the tailor. It should not be very difficult to incorporate the logic/skill and customizations of my father's tailor into this mechanical process, if needed.
 
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#12
:clapping: tnx for the brief explanation, later i got a mechanical system based on bollinger bands simple and easy to use the concept which i understand. I made the rules for it now learning to trade the systemdisciplinee with all discipline :thumb:
All the Gurus emphasize on following your plan/strategy to the dot. Come hell or high water, just stick to it and don't give up. Which means you have to totally believe in your method/style. The parameters have to be realistic. Wish you good luck with your system.:thumb:
 

oilman5

Well-Known Member
#13
many year back ,i have written an article on this, which i have lost,but brief discussion on it ,i have done before. Most contributors r right here,as per his version of story, but overall its more confusing?????
Let me help it out.
1] define first what type of trader u r. vs what type u want to be.
2] can u understand market at all?
3] can u decipher price -means what may happen in near future based on your chosen timeframe of trade
4] R u an anticipatory trader or price follower
5] what indicator u use to boost ur confidence so take a trade,how much u contribute success rate of those indicator based on ur past actual trade
6] how much mechanical/discipline u r in actual life?
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pl answer this question, as discreationary or mechanical - its trading system design.
No 1 element is YOU
next element is MARKET
third element is PRICE , price decipher is an art, with time one can learn, be it indicator based or cool observation as well as news base impact.
A learner must make extreme caution , to a novice (upto 4yr in market) Mechanical should be start pt.SLOWLY the person evolve as trader , understand- upmarket trade rule r not same as opposite of down trend.
Greed driven vs economy driven characteristics r different. So discretion comes.
Next after 6yr one faces strength of Range market (actually atleast 8month in a yr market expected now to be rangebound).........upto this one can tackle with mechanical system- up-down-sideways
But with volatility play plan, as well as for sector rotation ,u have to learn DISCRETION.
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for intraday, u study EOD , that is discretion to find opportunity. But trade execution after 3min upbreak is MECHANICAL. Short at a particular high = mechanical. but to a imp pivot high , taking a 20lot short discretion comes because u evaluate it as high probability set up.
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Again rethink and answer 1st six questions. -reply lies there what SUITS YOU.
 
#14
Hi all,

when you are calling it a system - whether discretionary or mechanical - it is a thing that has got some principles behind it.

once you track, trace, comprehend and follow these principles over a period of time with all your skills, you will frame some trading models - be it observation based or mathematics based. then you will implement them. means you are unknowingly mechanizing everything.

please don't limit your imagination with a mental block that you are a DISCRETIONARY TRADER or a MECHANICAL SYSTEM TRADER.

not of any use as you trade them sincerly only once you are convinced.

regards

purush
 

jamit_05

Well-Known Member
#16
Right now, I am firmly in the mechanical trading camp. I think that if a discretionary system is a "system" at all, then it should be possible to turn it into a mechanical system. http://www.traderji.com/trading-diary/88102-bakwaas-trading-4.html#post829863

My father still believes that his tailor stitches better clothes than the readymades available in shops. But look at the effort and skill involved in buying, measuring and stitching the cloth. And you also need the expert tailor to do the work, else the result may not be better than the readymades.

On the other hand, the readymades are made by machinery and unskilled/semi-skilled workers. The skill part has been captured in processes and machines that can repeatedly produce the dresses more efficiently without expert supervision, and in volumes unimaginable by the tailor. It should not be very difficult to incorporate the logic/skill and customizations of my father's tailor into this mechanical process, if needed.

"But look at the effort and skill involved"

It is a privilege for one to get an opportunity to develop a skill (or two) in his lifetime. Isn't that where the joy is. It makes work effortless.

I do agree on a point that machination of processes makes way for much larger volumes. But, I am not sure how applicable it is in trading on a personal level. Allow me to explain my understanding.

The biggest hurdle for traders, pros and newbs alike, is Drawdowns. In its face, traders start to bail-out on their methods. This effect is most pronounced in Mechanical trading as its drawdown is sharper as one has not developed the skill.

Surely consistent success in trading is NOT a function of ones mediocre skill in trading and exception skill in programming. There is no way around developing the skill to trade with ones eye.

Mechanization of the trading process is a dead end. To taste consistent success, one will have to lay himself bare to the elements of risk without the help of any machine, person or deity, but relying on his skill and skill alone.

Let me reiterate one good traders words:

"Jaise Til mein Tel Hain
Joh chak mak mein aag
Tera Sai tujh mein hai
Jaag sake to jaag"

PS: Consider this as a chit chat. I am NOT any good a trader, just working on it.
 
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augubhai

Well-Known Member
#17
The biggest hurdle for traders, pros and newbs alike, is Drawdowns. In its face, traders start to bail-out on their methods. This effect is most pronounced in Mechanical trading as its drawdown is sharper as one has not developed the skill.

Surely consistent success in trading is NOT a function of ones mediocre skill in trading and exception skill in programming. There is no way around developing the skill to trade with ones eye.

Mechanization of the trading process is a dead end. To taste consistent success, one will have to lay himself bare to the elements of risk without the help of any machine, person or deity, but relying on his skill and skill alone.
Why are u inferring that a mechanical trader would not have developed the system though the same process as a discretionary trader? Why wouldn't a mechanical system handle drawdown as good or as bad as a discretionary "system"? In fact, one of the focus of a good mechanical system should be handling drawdown. Are you trying to relate mechanical trading with stupidity? For the record, mechanical trading ≠ stupidity.

What I meant was that if u have a experience based/discretionary "system", then you should be able to translate it into machine language (though sometimes it may be complex, and not worth the effort). A "system" consists of different components (MM, bias, price action, probablility, news, whatever), that interact with each other within boundaries (system rules). So if u really have a discretionary "system", then it should be possible to document it, and translate it into machine language. If it cannot be documented (machine translation may be more difficult and not worth the effort), then probably u do not have a system.

We are in an age where people are decoding genes, nano-particles, and the whole universe. If there is a discretionary "system", translating its rules will not be rocket science. Let me stress that I am not saying that it is necessary to translate every discretionary system into mechanical. I am just saying that if a discretionary "system" is really a system, then it should be possible to create a mechanical system out of it.

In other words, a discretionary system is a system whose rules have not yet been captured/documented.

And while I am at it let me also clarify a few more things that u seem to have assumed:

1. A mechanical system does not mean a code based system. You can be trading a mechanical system even if u have not seen a computer in your life. :)

2. A trading system - discretionary or mechanical - need not be based on the eye. There are many systems that are traded without ever looking at the charts.

Long winded post, but I was pissed off because there were so many false assumptions in the post. And I am not replying about the Sai stuff, though it may be apt... :D
 

jamit_05

Well-Known Member
#18
The need to translate a system into code.

I am sure that you see that I didn't say anything personal. I just presented my views somewhat frankly on the subject.

I have not tried to make trading mechanical as I believe if that were the case then the best computer making companies would saturate the market. They'd use the code of best designs to extract profits on largest volumes possible. And it may be happening who knows.

Cheers.
 

augubhai

Well-Known Member
#19
Re: The need to translate a system into code.

I am sure that you see that I didn't say anything personal. I just presented my views somewhat frankly on the subject.

I have not tried to make trading mechanical as I believe if that were the case then the best computer making companies would saturate the market. They'd use the code of best designs to extract profits on largest volumes possible. And it may be happening who knows.

Cheers.
Nothing personal form my side either :). I just thought that some of the assumptions in ur post were incorrect.

Any system - mechanical or discretionary - can be profitable or unprofitable. Even if profitable, it may not be profitable in all time periods and all markets. And, systems will continue to be impacted by actions of other systems (and traders). Check out the quants that make huge profits for some time - and then have to update or scrap the systems - when they start making losses... may be because other quants interfere.

Here is one simple example of a mechanical system - not code based, not visual - it is just something that worked, and there was no guarantee that it would continue working for ever.
http://www.traderji.com/derivatives/79203-my-secret-nifty-trading-method-never-failed.html
 

oilman5

Well-Known Member
#20
Recently i read a good article , which may be helpful
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Learning from Crocodiles?

In tropical Australia, the saltwater crocodile is a fearsome and intelligent predator known to wait patiently for days or weeks on end until unaware prey come to the water’s edge and become its next meal. Crocodiles are by many accounts the most successful animal that has ever lived; they’ve been around for about 200 million years and have out-lived the Dinosaurs, and they’ve evolved over time to become perhaps the most successful predator on Earth, next to humans. Crocodiles are opportunistic predators; they’ve been known to learn the behavior of their prey and lie in wait for long periods of time almost to the point of starving, and then when the time is right they snatch their prey with confidence and precision.

In fact, it is quite common for people to swim with these animals for days or even weeks without any sign of aggression, until one day somebody goes swimming, fishing or even walking, and they never return. This demonstrates real-world evidence that one of the oldest and most methodical predators on Earth is also one of the most patient and disciplined that has ever lived. Darwin’s survival of the fittest theory certainly favors this creature; they’ve been around since Dinosaur times because their method of hunting and adapting is so successful. The salt water crocodile is perhaps nature’s ultimate “sniper”… it only needs to eat once a week or so because it makes high quality kills rather than a high quantity of low-quality kills.

As traders, there’s a ton of things we can learn from the crocodile, let’s discover some of them… Some of these are :

Crocodiles are a trader’s best role model :

They wait in prey for the big juicy meals rather then morsels of shoals of small fish that pass them buy. Crocs are designed and have evolved to be patient “sniper” hunters…many little meals do not interest them as much as a big juicy nourishing meal does. By trading less… our aim is to make a nice large “meaty” size trade that sustains us until our next trade. Sure we may have a few losses along the way to our big prize, but the goal here remains clear; waiting on the sidelines (or the shores of the river like the crocodile) to pounce on our prey and cop a huge nourishing meal. We don’t want to be running all over the pond or river looking for any small piece of meat or fish that we can find…we are going to wait it out and score ourselves a nice big juicy profitable trade (or in the crocodiles case, probably a kangaroo, a dog, or maybe even a human).

Crocs have a high strike-rate: It’s fairly safe to say that if a croc gets its jaws around its prey, the prey is not getting away.

Crocs have a good strike-rate because they are patient and wait for the “easy” opportunities and then act with confidence and speed…they don’t hesitate. Whereas a Lion might have many failed hunting attempts trying to catch a Gazelle or some other quick animal, expending a lot of energy in the process, crocs tend to have less “losing trades” or failed hunting attempts…because they don’t waste time or energy…they wait and wait and control themselves with precision until their prey almost walks into their mouth…then they feed.

As traders, waiting and being patient can increase your strike rate. Controlling ourselves is really all we can do as traders…we cannot control our “prey” (the market)…we can only conserve our money and wait patiently until our trading edge presents itself. This is how you get a high strike rate as trader, not by trading a hundred times a week in some futile effort to “scalp” the markets.


Crocodiles are good at avoiding risky situations; they learn fast:

Crocs “…learn quickly and adapt to changes in their situation. They particularly learn to avoid dangerous situations very quickly”, according to the article The Extraordinary Lives of Crocs. The article went on to discuss that this ability of crocs to learn quickly and avoid dangerous or risky situations is yet another reason they’ve outlasted the dinosaurs and are still thriving today. Avoiding risk is one way that a species can survive over time and “win” the evolution battle of the fittest. Similarly, not taking on more risk than is necessary as well as learning quickly are two very important keys to becoming a successful trader.

Conserving energy for the next kill: The crocodile waits for the big meal because it makes more sense to wait and conserve energy by eating a large chunk of protein less often. The croc conserves energy and time by eating this way and it also is one of the main things that have ensured the survival of crocodiles over hundreds of millions of years during many periods when food was scarce.

If you think about not interfering with your trades as helping to make you money, it might make it easier to do. I actually imagine that I am making money by not trading and by simply doing nothing, because by not losing money from over-trading and over-involvement…technically you ARE making money. A crocodile would probably eat less food overall if it was constantly running around trying to find small prey, the crocodile intuitively knows that by being patient and disciplined it has a better chance at getting a higher-quality meal. The crocodile “knows” itself and its own limitations and uses its strengths to its advantage. Indeed, the fact that the crocodile has been around since dinosaurs walked the Earth is evolutionary proof that the concept of patience and discipline most certainly pays off.

The crocodile intuitively knows that it needs to conserve energy and wait for a big kill, this patience is actually a “skill” for the crocodile and it’s also a habit that has developed and reinforced in crocs over millions of years of providing them with large tasty meals. Longevity is critical to a trader; we need to conserve the money in our trading accounts so that when the “easy prey” or obvious trades come along we can get the most out of them. If we go around trading everything we see we will shrink our trading accounts and we won’t have enough money in our accounts to get the most out of the high-probability signals. Just as if a croc ran around all day trying to catch smaller prey it would not have the energy or positioning to grab the bigger and better prey.

Crocodiles are highly adaptable:

Crocodiles learn quickly and adapt to changes in their situation. This is a large part of how and why they have survived for millions of years whilst many other animals have become extinct during that same time. According to the article I mentioned earlier’The Extraordinary Lives of Crocs’; “…crocodile researchers often have to change their capture techniques because it’s very hard to catch them [crocs] with the same trick twice.”

Many researches think that the adaptability of the crocodile, including its ability to “ignore” hunger for long periods while it waits patiently for the “perfect” feeding opportunity, is one of the main reasons they survived whatever killed off the dinosaurs. It’s clear that the crocodile’s ability to adapt to its environment and to changing situations is one of the reasons it has survived and thrived for millions of years.

As traders, we have to adapt to changing market conditions, and as we’ve already discussed we need to haveice cold discipline to only trade when our “prey” is ripe for the taking. One of the beautiful things about price action trading analysis is that it’s an inherently adaptable trading strategy. Whereas many trading systems are rigid and make you stick to a strict set of rules or conditions, price action analysis gives you more of a “framework” to work off of when analyzing the markets and this framework can be used to trade any market condition as well as adapt to changing market conditions.

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hope u enjoy!!!!!!!!!!