The Best Trading System

What do you like or dislike on this thread?

  • Like: Trading Theory, Psy Ops, Myth Busters

    Votes: 22 37.3%
  • Like: Trading Systems

    Votes: 20 33.9%
  • Like: Everything on this thread

    Votes: 32 54.2%
  • Dislike: Too much theory, not enough actionable items

    Votes: 4 6.8%
  • Dislike: Systems discussed are found as useless

    Votes: 1 1.7%
  • Dislike: Everything on this thread

    Votes: 2 3.4%

  • Total voters
    59

Tuna

Listen and act, don't ask it, it doesn't oblige
#51
My Trading Concept # 6

The Trading Edge

Over last 1 decade business of trading has been undergoing an evolution in terms of technologies and facilities from Brokerage houses. Today, there is easy access to improve tools for technical analysis. Similarly a vast knowledge-base is available over the web.

On top that, Discount brokerage houses made it possible for even retail traders to come out profitable by winning very few pips compared to what it was on days of high brokerages.

But still there is no lack of losers on trading - probably this is the only thing that did not change (and will not change).

Keeping aside basic ingredients of a successful trader - e.g discipline, skill etc, what actually makes the difference: is The Trading Edge.

There is no magic ingredients once again. It depends on the trader and his/her trading style. I will discuss mine (Both for daily timeframe, swing)

Edge 1:

The key edge that I feel I have - I know how to disconnect my emotion from my trade (there are times when I violated this, and I failed miserably, not because setup was wrong, but because I panicked).

And I do it by my position size.


I know it may sound very silly and naive (that, what is new on this), but let me ask you a question: How many of us actually follows it Consistently? If you are doing it and still you are losing trader, then there is a problem with your trade setup - there is no second doubt about it.

Don't try excessive leverage - best recipe to enrich your broker by higher brokerage and

Smart men go broke three ways: liquor, ladies and leverage

Consider if you have just 1.5 Lakh to trade with (on Nifty), how many lots will you buy? I guess most of the brokerage firms will allow you to buy 3-4 lots. So 3 lakhs around 5-6 lots.

My take is:

1 Lakhs = 1 Lot of Nifty (yes, thats it)
2 Lakhs = 2 Lot... so on.

I will show you an excel based scenario later.

What generally happens, with a big position size, a 50 odd point overnight gap against my position would have made me so nervy, I hardly could have stayed in my setup. My SL used to be tighter as the lot size was higher, giving market lesser room to flow around my entry and SL points before it finally moves in my favour.

Another related issue is: Most of us will jump into trades once we get the signal - crossover or say the index is coming out of overbought / oversold zone or some pattern (channel break or Bulls Flag etc)

There are a group traders (And they are big) who intentionally miss out these opportunities - simply because these setups are well known in the public domain. They give it a twist.

Once enough fishes are in the net, there is just enough liquidity pool for them to hit, they will simply infuse a decent amount of money against that setup to create the panic. And then after a majority of the folks are out - they will let the market take the due course- sounds familiar?

Now you can actually hold on to the trade (as you have sufficient believe that this setup works and your SL is still valid), only if you are risking very less on your trade.

But ofcourse, that does not mean that you don't have a SL. You should know where your setup fails.

Now how many points can you net on Nifty on monthly average - 200 a big ask? Anyone. 200 points per month.

Ok lets make it smaller 100 points? Ok now? I am asking for positional trading (forget scalping and all).

Rule is, once you are in profit, you are not trading without very good quality entry opportunities & R/R for rest of that month. And you have just 1 shot every week. If you miss it, no more trading that week (Swing).


Now see this what you can do with 1 Lakh. Consistency? yes, with a smaller lot size, it is far better. As you are disconnected to your emotional quotient in a decent way, now you can manage your trade better.


Monthly 200 points (my preferred strike rates):




Monthly 100 points (One can get it without much pain unless he/she is something very extraordinary ):




No risky trade if monthly target achieved. And for each trade your SL is fixed 100 points (trail once in profit). Book fixed target (anything 50+ is good for TSL @ Break-even) and get out. No need to let your winner's run in this method.

Please note, in both the cases you let your position size grow only up to a limit, then afterward, you start keeping aside profit to safer investment. Now what is that limit, you have to see.

As you will make it a habit of consistently hitting a fixed target every month, it will boost your confidence, till a point when you start taking little bigger risk out of the newly gained over-confidence and then start panicking -then that size - 1, is the threshold, your consistent new position size for may be next 1 more year before you can scale it up. Our Psy system needs time to adjust to risk. That will come to you with time.

Remember, your risk taking capability undergoes a gradual increase with a growing capital. You need to give yourself time.

I tried mathematical models (risk of ruin, win rate etc), but when it comes to overnight carryover trades - this is what determines your position size. Does not matter you have 5 lakhs or 5 Crs, the market can absorb everything if you don't do this properly


Edge 2:


The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

This I will not explain, you need to see it on chart yourselves, open up 3 years daily chart and mark point of reversals. How many times it happens that market, before making a top or bottom, tries to reclaim the level once more, then finally reversing.

When a market is looking too good to short or buy, stay aside - you are not alone watching that. So are the big brothers. Always remember that. Don't go long when it is too good to buy or don't go short if it is too good to short. Wait for 1 failure to happen on the chart.

Let the first set of retail traders enter and get kicked out, then on the next attempt Enter.

Yes there will be times when it does not come back for the second time, but still, this edge is much more rewarding on positional trading.

Hope this helps.

On Edge - 1: This was not mine. This was something suggested by a person whom I had met in a trading workshop during my early days. The same person who told me to focus on limited instruments. He also suggested one thing - which somehow I did not follow (He told : 'Remember, we always buy. Retailer does not short' not sure why he told that or was that only meant for options)

I was a losing trader till then. The journey of last 5 odd years from the deep pit was frustrating. But trading with small size during one's learning day with a constantly growing account is the best thing to have.
 
Last edited:

augubhai

Well-Known Member
#52
Edge 1:

The key edge that I feel I have - I know how to disconnect my emotion from my trade (there are times when I violated this, and I failed miserably, not because setup was wrong, but because I panicked).

And I do it by my position size.
Now you can actually hold on to the trade (as you have sufficient believe that this setup works and your SL is still valid), only if you are risking very less on your trade.
Hi Tuna,

Thanks for the post. Your posts on this thread are good food for thought. I had not checked the posts during the weekend and thought that I will chip in now.

I know that your discussion is more relevant to discretionary traders, or to systems that involve a lot of psy. (I keep trying discretionary trading every now and then, but have never been able to develop a consistent system out of it, probably due to the psy invovled. On my blog, I recorded my discretionary Nifty paper trades for the current series, but gave up and stopped last week)

The way I handle emotions is by mechanizing the system as much as possible. That means backtesting, deciding the system parameters, and then executing the system blindly based on the confidence in the backtested results.

One aspect that I have recently introduced into my mechanical trading is position sizing. Mathematically, contradicting a lot of advise that I see on position sizing, I find that the best system results are obtained by following the Kelly Criterion. I had posted this on the Bakwaas Trading thread...

The problem is that we are unsure of the future win % and RR ratio of trading systems. I guess that is the reason most books recommend 1-2% risk.

For example, if a system has a Win % of 50% and RR ratio of 1.6, then the optimal risk is 18.75% of compounded capital on every trade.

- If we risk 19% per trade, then after 100 trades, the capital will be 15.42 times the initial capital (1442% return on capital)
- If we risk 18% per trade, then after 100 trades, the capital will be 15.36 times the initial capital
- If we risk 15% per trade, then after 100 trades, the capital will be 13.87 times the initial capital
- If we risk 10% per trade, then after 100 trades, the capital will be 8.61 times the initial capital
- If we risk 5% per trade, then after 100 trades, the capital will be 3.61 times the initial capital
- If we risk 2% per trade, then after 100 trades, the capital will be 1.76 times the initial capital (76% return on capital - not too bad)
- If we risk 1% per trade, then after 100 trades, the capital will be 1.34 times the initial capital (34% return on capital)


The return with 19% risk looks grand... but there could be practical difficulties.

1. Will the Win % and RR ratio of the system hold into the future?
2. What happens when the system hits a continuous losing streak? According to calculations, we should still continue to risk the optimal risk %, if the system will get back to the Win % and RR ratio in future.
3. Margin requirements may limit position size, and not allow optimal risk.
4. The market/s may not have sufficient liquidity to allow compounding of position size.
5. With increased position size, slippages and fills may be affected. This will also impact the Win %, RR ratio, and % of Capital risked.

Questions 4 and 5 only become relevant when the position size increases significantly. For a small trader, only question 1 to 3 are relevant, and the answer is that we should try to risk close to the optimal risk to get better return on capital.
To use the Kelly Criterion for position sizing, it is important to
1. Know the risk-reward ratio
2. Avoid Black Swans, especially on the risk side.

That means that systems may need to be tweaked to obtain a risk-reward ratio that is consistent enough to enable application of the Kelly Criterion. I currently day trade a system that tells me to risk over 20% of the capital in each trade as per the Kelly Criterion. Due to margin limitations, I risk about 15% or above in each trade. Results so far have been good, but I also know what is to be expected....

Here is a screenshot of backtests of a different system based on filtered Opening Range Breakouts on the last 8 years data with Position Sizing based on Kelly. Notice the frequent 50% drawdowns, with the largest being close to 80%. But the returns have been stupendo fantabulosly phantasmagorically magical!



How do I plan to deal with it, especially when my position size turns big?
1. Position Size per the Kelly Criterion - or as close as possible to it, to maximize profits.
2. Periodical withdrawal of a fixed % of the capital, to mitigate the impact of drawdowns, and line my pockets.

Long post.... just thought of sharing my present approach, not yet proven though...
 

Tuna

Listen and act, don't ask it, it doesn't oblige
#53
Very Interesting insight, I would not read this now. Want to read this properly once back home. Thanks for adding value to this thread.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#54
Now, why to trade:

  • The amount of the money you can earn has no limit

  • If understood well, Trading can give you financial freedom faster than any profession compared

  • It actually makes you understand about yourself – your drawbacks, your strength and you can use to make a better person out of you (sound funny, but it did it for me)

  • 70% time of our life (relevant for people from middle/upper middle class background or lower) is actually spent in getting the security (financial). But inflation keeps on chewing away your savings every years. If you are looking for something which can edge past this, chose trading

  • This is a profession where there is no age bar for retirement, in fact if done well, you can retire well before your friends and with enough wealth for your next 7 generations unless some of them turns up to be bad traders and lose everything :)
This is indeed inspiring. Do you think supertrend works on crudeoil? Backtesting of supertrend on nifty gives good results and as commodities follow trend more clearer, will it give better opportunities over here?

Thanks.
 

Tuna

Listen and act, don't ask it, it doesn't oblige
#55
Nothing works on absolute scale. All I can say, find a way to avoid whipsaws. Thats the enemy of any trend following or crossover systems. Once you manage to do that, well you are good. And thanks for the feedback or the inspiration you got from my post. But I hope you have read the previous post as well


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Tuna

Listen and act, don't ask it, it doesn't oblige
#56
Hi Tuna,

....

I know that your discussion is more relevant to discretionary traders, or to systems that involve a lot of psy....

The way I handle emotions is by mechanizing the system as much as possible. ...


One aspect that I have recently introduced into my mechanical trading is position sizing. ...


To use the Kelly Criterion for position sizing, it is important to
1. Know the risk-reward ratio
2. Avoid Black Swans, especially on the risk side.

That means that systems may need to be tweaked to obtain a risk-reward ratio that is consistent enough to enable application of the Kelly Criterion..

Here is a screenshot of backtests of a different system based on filtered Opening Range Breakouts on the last 8 years data with Position Sizing based on Kelly. Notice the frequent 50% drawdowns, with the largest being close to 80%. But the returns have been stupendo fantabulosly phantasmagorically magical!

...

How do I plan to deal with it, especially when my position size turns big?
1. Position Size per the Kelly Criterion - or as close as possible to it, to maximize profits.
2. Periodical withdrawal of a fixed % of the capital, to mitigate the impact of drawdowns, and line my pockets.

Long post.... just thought of sharing my present approach, not yet proven though...
Thanks for the Post Bro. Please post more. Now few comments from my side (sequentially on the ... separated quoted text)

My system or trading style does factor in a lots of Psy, cause I found it difficult for me to be completely mechanical (except for my Fool's system, though not completely mechanical). And I consider the trading chart as the plotting of dots showing Psy factors of participants. I place myself somewhere on the middle ground of a system-driven trader and a discretionary trader. I don't rely on price action completely, but only if certain market conditions are met as per indicators, I look for an entry.

Same old method:

  • With the trend (most of the time)
  • Let the contra pitch in (Pullbacks)
  • Identify the failure point of the setup (in case Contra have a chance of homerun) - That's my SL (typically have to be in limit of 100 points for Nifty Swing, 16 pips on Intra, smaller even better)
  • Stick to position size however good the entry could be
  • Get in
  • Manage TSL or Fixed target (Like you might have noticed 16 points on Scalping, regardless of further run)
  • Get out or get Kicked out or scratch (not possible on mechanical trade)


Kelly Criterion is new to me. I will explore more. But the issue is, you can use it for a shorter timeframe. On overnight trading even with a strong trend, too much optimizing the position size might get it explosive to blow. But I am sure you are using it for Intra.

When I did my scalping, I did not hesitate to deploy 25% to 30% of caps on risk. My SL was fixed at 16 pips though, always.

The magnitude of drawdown is little scary though. Guess someone hitting even 30% - might shake the confidence on the trading system in a big way. But folks with experience can probably hold the nerve.

I had let the time & (restricted) compounding (proportional to capital growth and risk taking capability) to compensate for that.

On periodic withdrawal of profits from the trading a/c - I second that. Everyone should do that without fail.

Let me finish my reply with quote from a legend-

"Risk no more than you can afford to lose, also risk enough so that a win is meaningful"~ Ed Seykota
 
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Tuna

Listen and act, don't ask it, it doesn't oblige
#57
My Trading Concept # 7

This is one of my trading systems that I regularly use for reference to find trend reversals (contra failure) but you can double it up as very good intraday system.

Component:

  • BB (20,2,SMA)
  • CCI (20,100,-100)
  • EMA(CCI(20,close),34) - ovelay over CCI
  • Pivot points confluence with weekly and daily


Idea: Kill the Contra on Intra during trend days

When it works fine: Typically when you have ADX > 30 on Daily chart

How to trade:

Key is: You stick to your bias though out the day based on daily trend (check supertrend). Don't try to put butter on both side of the toast.

  1. Let market open and after sometime Contra traders will get in thinking- its too cheap to buy or sell (going against daily bias)

  2. Let them come to BB top (preferable) or Mid for short during bearish day & opposite for bullish days and check with Pivot lines (resistance for short) nearby to understand that this is an area where lots of players will join you.

  3. Once above conditions are met, look for a candle where
  4. Either you see a ZLR (Zero Line Rejection) on CCI - that is CCI is trying to cross the zero line but failed after crossing or very near to it​

  5. Or CCI is about to cross the 34 EMA overlay in your direction (from top if you are short or vice-a-versa)​


  • Enter on that candle, SL 16 pips

  • Book 16 pips and for Christ's Sake, Get Out !!



Don't:

  1. Don't trade after 2 (net) win. Get away from the screen and enjoy life. Respect the Z factor (mine was 32 pips)

  2. Dont try contra - if you really want (else your GF/BF will leave you, that kind of compulsion) - Do it after a double dip or double top with divergence on CCI, near support + Good Volume candle showing lots of profit booking on primary trends.

  3. Don't go against Contra if you see enough strength (volume + Candle length), after 2:30 PM (Final Session) - Might be confirmed reversals

Hope this helps.


Sample confluence & chart on 23rd Dec









P.S- Answer to questions might get delayed as I am bit off screen for rest of this year.
 
Last edited:

Karanm

Active Member
#58
My Trading Concept # 7

This is one of my trading systems that I regularly use for reference to find trend reversals (contra failure) but you can double it up as very good intraday system.

Component:

  • BB (20,2,SMA)
  • CCI (20,100,-100)
  • EMA(CCI(20,close),34) - ovelay over CCI
  • Pivot points confluence with weekly and daily


Idea: Kill the Contra on Intra during trend days

When it works fine: Typically when you have ADX > 30 on Daily chart

How to trade:

Key is: You stick to your bias though out the day based on daily trend (check supertrend). Don't try to put butter on both side of the toast.

  1. Let market open and after sometime Contra traders will get in thinking- its too cheap to buy or sell (going against daily bias)

  2. Let them come to BB top (preferable) or Mid for short during bearish day & opposite for bullish days and check with Pivot lines (resistance for short) nearby to understand that this is an area where lots of players will join you.

  3. Once above conditions are met, look for a candle where
  4. Either you see a ZLR (Zero Line Rejection) on CCI - that is CCI is trying to cross the zero line but failed after crossing or very near to it​

  5. Or CCI is about to cross the 34 EMA overlay in your direction (from top if you are short or vice-a-versa)​


  • Enter on that candle, SL 16 pips

  • Book 16 pips and for Christ's Sake, Get Out !!



Don't:

  1. Don't trade after 2 (net) win. Get away from the screen and enjoy life. Respect the Z factor (mine was 32 pips)

  2. Dont try contra - if you really want (else your GF/BF will leave you, that kind of compulsion) - Do it after a double dip or double top with divergence on CCI, near support + Good Volume candle showing lots of profit booking on primary trends.

  3. Don't go against Contra if you see enough strength (volume + Candle length), after 2:30 PM (Final Session) - Might be confirmed reversals

Hope this helps.


Sample confluence & chart on 23rd Dec









P.S- Answer to questions might get delayed as I am bit off screen for rest of this year.
Kindly provide AFL for all the concepts of your Trading.
Thanks & Regards
 

Tuna

Listen and act, don't ask it, it doesn't oblige
#59
Kindly provide AFL for all the concepts of your Trading.

Thanks & Regards


Sorry, I don't use AmiB. If I had to code anything, I used to do it on TradeScript, but the issue is, it does not support many indicators (Like ST etc). I also tried some code based strategy for backtesting earlier (even sometime now) on another paid service where they have some inbuilt indicators to play with. But even that got some limitation in terms of backtesting window - so won't recommend that.



But this above setup is simple to code (partially). There will be many snippets on the BB setup, all you need to add it up with CCI confluence.



But I will tell you what you can not do:



  • Pivot Point Confluence (You still need to verify Visually)


  • ZLR (the absolute one you can code where it went up and down the zero line), but the cases where it did a TST to Zero Line, you can not code. May be you can put a factor like 5-7 pips from Zero line as the switch to capture such cases


  • 34 EMA Crossover - same issue, you can code the absolute crossover only



Its a fact that I don't generate signals based on code for any of the system I discussed so far. But if any of you want to try, go ahead.
 
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Tuna

Listen and act, don't ask it, it doesn't oblige
#60
My Trading Concept # 7
Another trial run for same setup (Post market analysis, I did not trade today any of these as I am on trading-holidays)

Check Points:

ADX Parameter = Met

Day Trend on Supertrend = Bearish = Bias for Whole Days ==> Shall not take any long trade does not matter how cheap this might be

Pivot Points for the Day: Since opening price remained below Camarilla L4 (Marked Red)--> That is your Hard Stoploss or best selling zone or Sell on every rise. Next Sell zone would have been near Day Pivot, marked it Yellow.

For Contra lovers (Green Marked)




Entry / Exits Chart:





Questions: Plz Feel free to ask, but answer might be little delayed
 

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