Reliance Industries - Big Brother on the move

protrade

Well-Known Member
#31
Friday's move in the stock may not have been big in terms of percentage, but it is nevertheless a significant move to break through resistances that have held strong for a long time.

Don't think of Jio as a mobile company - it will be a lot more than just mobile - in fact, mobile will become smaller and smaller as a percentage of this company's revenues after first 3 years. This will morph into India's largest content creation and consumption play. India's largest cloud services play. In addition to India's largest mobile and broadband services play. And much much more than even this.

Reliance Retail is going to be the big surprise - and is expected to rapidly overtake Flipkart to become the biggest competitor to Amazon. And because of not being tied down to the marketplace model, Reliance Retail will be able to invest in in-house brands, and such, to capture much greater share of the customer's money. Already, ReConnect and Lyf are becoming major in-house brands of Reliance Retail. Reliance has its own nationwide after-sales and support infrastructure, something neither Amazon nor Flipkart can offer. This allows them to capture extra revenue from extended warranty, etc. They have their own logistics and delivery infrastructure from godown to store, and will be extending this to cover the doorstep as well. In fact, no one else comes close to owning the entire customer experience the way Reliance can.

The unknown in the pack is Reliance Life Sciences - and it is slowly becoming obvious that this company is one of the biggest players in the world in monoclonal antibodies, biosimilars, and gene therapy technologies. For some time, there has been a buzz that Reliance will shortly come out in the open with details about Reliance Life Sciences, and probably make a big bang acquisition. For almost 10 years, RLS has been flirting with CIPLA, but never pulled the trigger. Now, the time might be close - because RLS simply doesn't have the manufacturing scale that a player of its size needs. Its Navi Mumbai plant may face suspension from the FDA, and that could be the trigger for a quick acquisition - and probably even a reverse merger and back door listing. In fact, talk is that RLS could actually become publicly listed even before its more well known siblings Jio and RRetail.

The bread and butter petrochem business is flourishing, and with completion of capex cycle, is poised to scale greater heights. Reliance has restarted operations in all its retail gas stations, and some of them have become Reliance Retail properties outlets. It is expected that the entire gas station network will be eventually transferred to Reliance Retail.

KG-D6 issues are getting close to a resolution, one way or the other. The arbitration case against the the Government is proceeding quite rapidly, and considering how many cases the GoI has lost recently in international arbitration, it will not be a surprise to anyone if Reliance wins this one. The CAG report itself has gaping holes - where they are comparing prices for contracts placed in 2011 against the much lower prices that prevailed post the oil price crash in 2014! This gold plating dispute actually comes as a blessing in disguise for Reliance, because today oil exploration costs are almost 70-80% lower than they were earlier.

This is a 3x in 3y stock - I expect it will be 3 times where it is today in 3 years time. And there aren't any large cap stocks in the world that one can expect this kind of move. In fact, I must say I would be somewhat disappointed if it only went up 3x in 3y!! This is the sort of stock that you buy, lock it up, and throw away the key!
 
#32
The facts of this case are as follows: The blocks allocated to ONGC and Reliance were contiguous. ONGC slept on its blocks for a long time, focussing on other areas. Reliance focussed exclusively on KG-D6. Only after Reliance succeeded in KG-D6, ONGC woke up.

As early as 2005, ONGC realized that these were contiguous blocks, and gas could migrate from their block to ONGC - they did nothing despite getting aware of it.

Years later, they tried to blame Reliance, by showing that Reliance had drilled at the edges of their block - but Reliance was clearly well within its rights to drill anywhere in its acreage.

What is happening is simple physics - when Reliance removes the gas from their area, the pressure drops there, and the gas from other areas migrate there to make the pressure equalize. Moment ONGC starts drilling and does it properly, they will also benefit from the same process. ONGC cannot fault Reliance for their failure to commence drilling.
1. You have any idea what geophysics is and how the global petroleum syndicate works? Do you even know the stories of some main stream political figures dying or permanently damaging their repute over the Godavari basin issues?

2. Have you ever gone out of your private planet well connected with only the internet, and have actually talked to real business people on the main street on why they don't like (or even hate) mota bhai's (monopolistic) business practices?

3. Would you also ask them if they would be willing to import cheap lower hydrocarbons like VCM from Russia, China, Iran or South America and make 50-60% profit in arbitrage? You might just get to hear several murder and suicide legends!

After you answer these for yourself, you will know the reason why markets will sometimes blindly bet on some corporate houses and why some stocks are often referred to as "satta stocks"!

And no, before you claim so just for the sake of argumentation, I am not a socialist! But I do care for my money and for what it does if I am going to make a long term investment!

Edit: Having said the above, their investments in the cloud business seem promising. With Jio on the side, their cloud business could just be the next gen monopoly! However, even to the senior management folks in Jio, the details are, at best, unclear and, at worst, downright unavailable! Long term investments are not made on rumors.
 
Last edited:

protrade

Well-Known Member
#33
1. You have any idea what geophysics is and how the global petroleum syndicate works? Do you even know the stories of some main stream political figures dying or permanently damaging their repute over the Godavari basin issues?

2. Have you ever gone out of your private planet well connected with only the internet, and have actually talked to real business people on the main street on why they don't like (or even hate) mota bhai's (monopolistic) business practices?

3. Would you also ask them if they would be willing to import cheap lower hydrocarbons like VCM from Russia, China, Iran or South America and make 50-60% profit in arbitrage? You might just get to hear several murder and suicide legends!

After you answer these for yourself, you will know the reason why markets will sometimes blindly bet on some corporate houses and why some stocks are often referred to as "satta stocks"!

And no, before you claim so just for the sake of argumentation, I am not a socialist! But I do care for my money and for what it does if I am going to make a long term investment!

Edit: Having said the above, their investments in the cloud business seem promising. With Jio on the side, their cloud business could just be the next gen monopoly! However, even to the senior management folks in Jio, the details are, at best, unclear and, at worst, downright unavailable! Long term investments are not made on rumors.
Long term investments are not made on rumors - fully agree. But I can't help but feel that every single thing you have mentioned - whether it is talk of political figures dying or damaging repute, or murders/suicide, sounds like typical conspiracy theories and rumors to me.

I kind of agree that these games have multiple billions at stake, so it is likely there are some shady deals, etc. But I am not asking you to be Mukesh Ambani's wheeler dealer - I am saying it is worth investing in the stock!

I am giving clear, factual concepts and my opinions of how things will play out in the future. You are (potentially) referring to the past - with some murky things. I think future is more determined by the future, than by the murky past.

As for cheaper hydrocarbons - I don't get your point at all - Reliance has a complex refinery capable of processing even dirty high sulphur crude. And they constantly make great refining margins by being able to buy the cheapest crude, and making the finest grade diesel, gasoline and other products from it. If it made sense to buy cheaper crude from elsewhere, I see no reason why they wouldn't do it.

And I don't second guess Mukesh Ambani's ability to run his business. He doesn't need certificate from me, or lessons from me or ideas/suggestions from me. He has proven himself multiple times over, that I am willing to accept that even if something doesn't make sense to me today, there must be some larger strategy in place which we simply don't know about.

But in specific case of Jio, I happen to have some idea of their strategy. And I believe the game they are playing is phenomenal. Current market leaders like AirTel don't even think at that level, so they obviously cannot play the game at that level. I have already posted the details of that in a different post - so not going to repeat here. I will post the strategic positioning of Jio in summary form. Jio is not a 4G story at all. If you look at it as a 4G story, you are missing the picture totally. Jio is not about the pipe at all, it is about owning what is sent on that pipe. The ownership and control of the pipe is just the way Reliance will be able to ensure their success.

Jio and Lyf brands are clear indications that Reliance wants greater chunk of your life. Their competitors are more Google, Facebook and Amazon, rather than AirTel. AirTel is simply incidental in the picture. In 3 years, they won't even be talking about AirTel.

In many ways, its like how MicroSoft was the king of Software Industry. People thought that as long as Windows was there, MS had the control. But today, the game changed in such a way, Google, Apple, Facebook, and others own the game.
 

protrade

Well-Known Member
#34
Amazing strength shown by Reliance, even in these markets that are quite weak. Should be clear indication that company has turned the corner!

Guys, the stock has not even begun the run - it is still < 11x PE. Capital cycle largely complete. Now waiting for cash to come in. Stock is a multi-bagger. What more signs are you waiting for?
 

protrade

Well-Known Member
#36
The Reliance story just got powerfully revalidated.

- ONGC was told that it doesn't deserve compensation from Reliance - and if anyone deserves compensation, it is the government. I mentioned earlier also, that it will actually be better for Reliance and bad for the government if Government asks Reliance for compensation. Reliance has paid government profit petroleum share - years back. If that petrol doesn't belong to Reliance, then the profit share to government will also be canceled! Which means, government will actually lose - as prices are lower now! Secondly, in 2009, even before the ONGC allegations, both Reliance and Niko dramatically lowered the potential of KG-D6. They can easily claim that even if the gas migrated from ONGC fields, there is no evidence that the gas came to Reliance fields - because even Reliance fields gas levels dropped. If gas migrated from ONGC, maybe it migrated from Reliance fields also, thats why KG-D6 potential had to be lowered so significantly. This is actually a powerful argument, which cannot really be countered - because the facts of the case are clear. But most importantly, Reliance can easily claim that this claim is baseless and unfair - because it stems not from any illegal or wrong action on the part of Reliance, but inaction (that is, failure to drill and failure to commence production) of ONGC. How can Reliance be penalized for doing a job that ONGC should have done, but didn't do? The government probably recognized this argument, and decided not to soften its stance on the gas migration case against Reliance.

http://www.ippai.org/powernewsdetails/govt-softens-stand-in-case-against-reliance-industries

- With demonetization, there is going to be huge advantage for Organized Retail, as opposed to Unorganized Retail. As the biggest player in the field, Reliance Retail is obviously a big beneficiary. Beyond question! Also, many e-commerce firms are losing out because of drops in Charge on Delivery business, as well as massive increase in returns. Reliance Retail has zero impact from all this.

- Reliance Jio has ironed out all the issues of last several months, and things are settling down nicely. There are a large number of users, and overall, satifaction is reasonable. The scope for Reliance Jio to disrupt the existing players is extremely high. Also, the interconnect issue is playing out perfectly advantageous to Jio. Even if fine is cancelled, the competitors will not have the guts to play hardball and deny interconnects.

http://gadgets.ndtv.com/telecom/new...0-crores-fine-on-airtel-vodafone-idea-1477614

- Back in June, Reliance announced a partnership with SBI for a payments bank. Obviously this was a big deal - because partnering with India's largest bank is going to help Reliance a lot. But post demonetization, and with the recent pick up in digital wallets, e-payments, etc, this news assumes a much greater significance.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...for-payments-bank-jv/articleshow/53009074.cms

- across Fuel, Retail, Telecom, Entertainment and Finance, Reliance has the potential to capture significant portion of the customers wallet. And will obviously benefit huge as all these players shift from cash to electronic payments. Already the loyalty program of Reliance Retail, Reliance One, is getting popular. And it was recently extended as a Prepaid Wallet. It is natural to expect this to be leveraged to cover Telecom, Fuel, etc., also. The RelianceOne Prepaid Wallet, Reliance Jio Money Wallet and the Payments Bank are currently disparate solutions, but its reasonable to expect all of these to be integrated to make Reliance the biggest player in digital payments and loyalty space. No one else even comes close to matching what Reliance can do here.

Many people rightfully think Banks are the biggest beneficiaries of demonetization - but I believe Reliance could actually be an even bigger winner out of demonetization. Banks will see CASA gains - but will shortly see interest rates being cut aggressively by RBI. Also, the demonetisation potentially increases risk of NPAs rising - because the black money can no longer be used to reduce loan pressure. The impact on GDP over next 2-3 quarters could also pressurize bank NPAs. Reliance on the other hand doesn't face the negatives, and is powerfully positioned to capitalize on demonetization.

In any case, clearly the share has fallen quite a bit, for no reason whatsoever. Most of its sales are today in Oil and Gas space - and are bulk sales - not paid for in cash! So demonetization should have very little impact on the company. The only place where there could be impact is in Reliance Retail - but even there, I think the negative impact will be shortlived - longer term Reliance Retail will be a winner as India shifts to organized retail.
 

protrade

Well-Known Member
#37
I have pitched very strongly for Reliance and this has been borne out by reality. Reliance has outperformed the Nifty massively.

I believe there is massive upside for Reliance - with the stock likely to hit 2000 levels before March 2019.

Key triggers for this will be inventory gains boosting refining margins, Reliance Retail attracting massive investment from partners to eliminate significant debt of Reliance, Jio to start powering earnings in big way. Key positive would be KG-D6 negatives that are already priced in getting eliminated.
 

protrade

Well-Known Member
#38
Protrade,

* After your factual and well argued post, this response however by contrast is tepid by logic. The crux of the argument is not about ONGC, but substantial restitution to be made by Reliance in favor or be it X, Y, Z Govt. of India or ONGC, the claimants being immaterial.

* As regards late development of blocks, it is not necessary that ONGC do the drilling when Reliance has done it. Would Reliance seen merit in development of a block just because ONGC had done it? For e.g assume you buy a plot of land as does another relative that is a contiguous plot (meaning nothing other than sharing a common border) If your relative was to develop the plot and build a house, it is not necessary for you to do so... ONGC is not obliged to match Reliance's actions. And to further extend the analogy, if your relative had to drill an angular well or tap into water stream in your plot using horizontal drilling, would that in any way be right or legal? Though simplistic, the same argument holds here.

* The independent, international and expert panel, DeGolyer & MacNaughton appointed with agreement of Reliance, has stated that 11,055 crore of gas belonging to ONGC had migrated to Reliance. So ONGC's petition does have merit.

* And in another argument while you say that it is simple physics, it is not necessarily so. ONGC has claimed that :RIL’s wells were “so drilled and constructed that there is a pre-planned and calculated slant/angular incline towards the gas reserves of RIL"

* Again, Govt. denying the costs incurred by Reliance (Gold plating and padding of expenses incurred in drilling) is apt and it is not penal in nature as it pertains to wrongful tapping of ONGC's reserves. If govt. were to reimburse RIL, it would be equivalent to reimbursing the fuel bill of the person who has carted away your material stored in your property. :lol::lol::lol:

* Re. 'I don't think this is a major issue for Reliance' Really? Guess you did not read the post fully. This is what Reliance have themselves said : “RIL said that any recommendations given by the Committee, even if not binding, would likely cause irreparable harm to RIL and its reputation since the recommendations would be released in the public"

Last from me on this....
It’s been a long time - almost 20 months. But my stance has been vindicated. Arbitration has resulted in a verdict that Reliance doesn’t owe restitution to ONGC or for that matter to the government.

I actually believe Reliance has a strong case against the government over the policy shifts vis-a-vis KG-D6, and in different circumstances, Mukesh Ambani would have pursued this case to logical conclusion and extracted a major pound of flesh from the government.

However, he has bigger fish to fry. And the government should consider itself lucky to get a get-out-of-jail card on this one.
 

nurav

Well-Known Member
#39
Varun sir had identified this as a multibagger when the price was around 800 cum bonus(near Demonetisation i think). His targets were 3000 before 2020. We are already at 2600 levels. More than 3 times in less than 2 years.
 

nurav

Well-Known Member
#40
If my memory serves me right, he had advocated buying Reliance shares as an SIP instead of buying Mutual funds. Needless to say it has outperformed all Mutual funds by a big margin. I mean can you think of 1 Mutual fund that has tripled in these 2 years.
 

Similar threads