Come into the Trader's Den

AW10

Well-Known Member
Thanks for your inputs AW10.
I agree to you to most extents.
And yes even I have had some trials to realise that 30% is quite small.
I love Options. Though I have lost and stood embarrased naked.

1.But can this be done with somewhat certainity.
Considering self to be reasonbly bright and sincere.

2.Also At the moment , this cannot be a full time profession.
Maybe an hour every day. Is that acceptable , Or continuous monitoring to
buy / sell is required.

3.Being more specific to your option spreads thread , Assuming reasonably In depth knowlege of Options and most strategies , how do we go about predicting the direction of the market / stocks.
How do we discover certainity.
Lets say a few examples
3.a.Good results / enthusiasm => Upward movement for a couple of days
grab a part of it.
3.b.Continuous fall of some heavy weight like Reliance for 4 -5 days , calls for reversal.
Aces27, I have highlighted the word certainty in your post and would like to express my view on it. There is no certainty in market. As a human being, we want to be in our comfort zone, be in control of knowing exactly what is going on around us, and hence look for CERTAINTLY. This is one of major roadblock for junior traders cause, IMO, nothing is certain in market. It is all game of probability and decision making under UNCERTAINTY. If you can't change your belief and can't accept this fact, then you will find the trading journey difficult . It is about your forming your view, based on your knowledge, and historical analysis. And taking the trade when odds are in your favour. Knowing very well that you could be wrong. So you got to know when market has proven you wrong, and take corrective action and book loos.

I am personally not a fan of Technical Analysis , its more of drawing figures in clouds. But Would like to hear more opinions from the Den.

I truly seek your advise , and thank you for your time.
You are making significant difference in finanacial lives / thought of many here.
It is fine if you don't like Tech Analysis. But do you know what are the other types of analysis exist in market besides fundamental analysis and TA ? Which is the approach you will use to make your decision. Whatever approach you use, it has to be verifiable, something you can backtest and ensure that it is profitable.

IMO, more then the approach, it is consistency in application of that is more important. If your trend identification approach is based on MA line (if above 20 bar moving avrg, then bullish, and if below, then bearish), it is perfectly fine. Use this approach and backtest your trading system, and see if it is profitable or not. If it is profitable, go for it. If not, then try to find out how to improve it. There are many more important steps in trading, so don't get stuck at first step of trend identification and trying to make it 1000% perfect cause there is no perfect answer. There are time when all approaches of trend identification will fail. Hence important is to keep us agile and adjust our views, as per the message from market.

Hope this helps.
Happy Trading
 

AW10

Well-Known Member
Just sharing something from my collection. I highly recommend any serious trader to read and practice the book - trading in the zone.
---------------------------------

In 'Trading In The Zone' Mark Douglas lists the '5 Fundamental Truths' which are in essence a set of beliefs. If you can adopt these beliefs, internalise them, then you will experience the markets and trading in a different way, and more importantly trade them in a different way. If you change your viewing you change your doing.

The 5 Fundamental Truths

1.Anything can happen
2.You don't need to know what's going to happen next to make money
3.There's a random distribution between wins & losses for any given set of variables that define an edge
4.An edge is nothing more than an indication of a higher probability of one thing happening over another
5.Every moment in the market is unique
--------------------------

Happy Trading
 

DanPickUp

Well-Known Member
Hi

AW10, your statement is in no way wrong ! I know what you meant, but I love the concept of looking at trading through the way I posted it.

I mean, you recommend Mark Douglas in your last post and the concept of looking at trading through the idea, that each of our successful trades is only possible because some one else took it, IS from Mark Douglas. It is not in the book you recommend. There is other stuff around from him.

So I am a little bit surprised about why you think your stm is wrong.

I am on the other hand not sure, if aces27 understands your post. In the post you stated to me, you gave him already the answer to what he is looking for. MM.

I mean, at the moment he is not able to produce on a constant way just a few % and already is asking for permanent 30%. Some how funny.

But as you posted: One position and then two and so on.

Searching for what ever will not closes the psychological gap from live trading and paper trading. If he not even can live trade one position with a permanent small profit, so how to trade two or more positions ?

One of the simple answers to trade maybe constantly 30% or what ever is to have a record with one position over a longer time with little profit and then double the positions and so on.

Pav, do you want an other surprise ?

http://www.traderji.com/words-wisdom/25877-trading-zone-mark-douglas.html

Tc

DanPickUp
 

DanPickUp

Well-Known Member
Hi

Do you remember the story about the bookmaker and the chasing hope?

Long Long time ago there were 2 option traders. One consistently lost while the other made lots of money.

"Why are you so successful?" asked the loser Mr Chasing Hope, to the winner Mr.Bookmaker "Why do I lose almost every time?" Bookmaker explained, "to win in any game, you must know the rules, you must know what motivates the players and you must have an edge. I will teach you these simple things so you can be a winner."

IN THE OPTIONS GAME THERE ARE ONLY TWO BETS

"The option game consists of only 2 bets. One bet is a call while the other is a put. A player buys a call if he thinks the market is going up while he buys a put if he thinks the market is going down. The person who takes the other side of the bet is the seller of the option."

"Option sellers do business in the way of insurance companies. An insurance company charges a premium for fire insurance. The insurance company only pays if your house burns down. If it does not burn down the insurance company keeps the premium."

"You buy a call if you think the market is going up. If it stays the same or goes down the option seller keeps the premium."

"You buy a put if you think the market is going down. If it stays the same or goes up the option seller keeps the premium."

"In both examples your odds of winning are only one in three if you buy an option."

"It gets even worse for the buyer. Think of health insurance. If a person has cancer, smokes, drinks and works in a high risk job such as construction do you think the insurance company will charge him a low premium? Of course not, the premium will be very high to compensate for the added risk of illness accident or death. Even if this poor soul dies it is of no concern for the insurance company. The premiums collected from all high risk clients such as this man will more than compensate for any of these individuals dying. The same is true for markets. Call and put options for the Japanese Yen are very expensive. In fact the market can move in your favor and you may only break even or lose money. The reason is simple. The yen is highly volatile and the option seller must charge a high premium to protect himself against adverse price movement."

"As a Options Buyer, you may be correct in market direction and still lose money."

"Observe the prices for December 2000 options. The 950 call is sold for 20 points or 2000 RM . That means that the price of the December Futures must go to 970 for the call buyer to break even. The 700 put is sold at 35 points or 3500 RM. That means that the December Future must fall to 665 for the put buyer to break even."

Bookie Options Trading

The call buyer would lose all his money if price closed at 950 on Dec 29 the expiration of the December futures contract.

These are theoretical premiums as options have not yet been launched on KLSE futures. Once they are launched premiums will probably be even higher.

"Are you beginning to understand? To make a profit, you must be correct in market direction and price has to make a major move in that direction No wonder 80% of option buyers lose money."

WHO ARE THE PLAYERS AND WHAT MOTIVATES THEM?

Bookmaker explained, "There are two groups of players in options. The buyers and the sellers. You, my friend Hope Chaser, are a buyer. That is why you lose consistently. You buy and you hope the market moves in your favor. You play options like a buyer of social welfare lottery tickets. You buy hope. Have you ever known anyone who consistently makes money buying lottery tickets? The only consistent winner is the underwriter. For every dollar taken in only 60% is paid out."

"The seller of options uses the same tactics as a lottery underwriter, insurance company or casino."

"These businesses assess risk, levy a premium, and get rich."

"Their edge can be your edge. You as an option seller will win 80% of the time."

TRADE WITH AN 80%+ CHANCE OF MAKING MONEY ON EVERY TRADE !

Bookmaker was always happy to share his knowledge. His mission in life was to earn consistent profits from the market and teach a few worthy souls his moneymaking strategy.

"Chasing Hope, why do you buy calls and puts when most of the time you lose?"

Hope answered "I buy them because I have hope to make huge profit with only small premium risk."

Bookmaker made his usual frank comment, "Most of the time you lose your premium don't you. Better you should sell hope than buy it?"

This leads to Bookmaker's Rule #1:

NEVER BE A BUYER OF AN OPTION, BE A SELLER because it is a proven, statistical fact that 80 % of options expire worthless. If you buy an option your chances of winning are only 20 %. If you are a seller of an option your odds of winning are 80 %.

"This sounds like a winner, how do I sell options and how do I protect myself should the market go against me? I am afraid to be a seller of options because the brochure from my brokers said that sellers of options have unlimited risk," asked Chasing Hope.

Bookmaker replied, "options are like anything for sale. Buyers and sellers come together in a marketplace and decide on a price. The process to be implemented is similar to buying a share or futures contract. Buyers and sellers are matched electronically. In US options markets buyers and sellers are matched using an open outcry system. Risk is managed by having a pre existing plan to cut losses should your position go against you. Here is a simple plan you can use."

Bookie Trading Strategy

"This plan puts time on your side. An option seller put money into his pocket every day."

"If January soybeans settled between 550 and 475 by expiry. the seller would collect 22 cents for the 550 call and 10 cents for the 475 put. This would be a profit of 1600 US$ as each cent in grains = 50 US."

"To protect yourself from unlimited loss you would place a protective buy stop at 550 and a protective sell stop at 475. If the future price reached those levels you would immediately liquidate the entire position. You would take a loss on one option and a profit on the other option as well as a small profit on the futures. There is less than a 20% chance of this happening."

This was Bookmakers Rule #2:

USE THE SAME WINNING PLAN AS CASINOS, PUT TIME ON YOUR SIDE.

The bookmaker explained: "casinos are in the hope and dream business. They sell the dream that you can make $2,000,000 by investing only one dollar in the one arm bandit. Have you ever seen anyone win a jackpot? Usually what happens, a player will start with a few hundred dollars and lose all. The player keeps pulling the handle hoping that the next pull will be a big jackpot. Time is the enemy of the player because the longer he plays the more money he loses The result is empty pockets. Time is on the side of the casino."

"In options trading, time is on the side of the option seller. Each day that passes the option becomes worth less."

"Here, my friend Hope, is an example of an option selling plan with Live Cattle. Live Cattle which is traded on the Chicago Mercantile Exchange is an excellent market for an option seller. Most of the time Live Cattle congests in a range. You may sell both puts and calls at the same time."

Bookie Options Trading

"By selling the 70 call and 65 put you would take in a premium of 2.85. Since live cattle is 400 US$ for each cent that would mean you collect 1140 US$ of premium."

"If price remained between 65 and 70 until expiry of the December contract, you would earn the entire premium."

"Do not forget to manage your risk. Remember what the broker brochure said. Sellers of options have unlimited risk."

"Set a Mental Stop to liquidate your Options Position. Never let a Options to get In The Money "

This is Bookmaker's most important rule, RULE #3:

IF YOU SELL AN OPTION, Never let your Options get In The Money unless you place a buy or sell stop on the actual Futures Contract.

Tc

DanPickUp
 
hi

do you remember the story about the bookmaker and the chasing hope?

long long time ago there were 2 option traders. One consistently lost while the other made lots of money.

"why are you so successful?" asked the loser mr chasing hope, to the winner mr.bookmaker "why do i lose almost every time?" bookmaker explained, "to win in any game, you must know the rules, you must know what motivates the players and you must have an edge. I will teach you these simple things so you can be a winner."

in the options game there are only two bets

"the option game consists of only 2 bets. One bet is a call while the other is a put. A player buys a call if he thinks the market is going up while he buys a put if he thinks the market is going down. The person who takes the other side of the bet is the seller of the option."

"option sellers do business in the way of insurance companies. An insurance company charges a premium for fire insurance. The insurance company only pays if your house burns down. If it does not burn down the insurance company keeps the premium."

"you buy a call if you think the market is going up. If it stays the same or goes down the option seller keeps the premium."

"you buy a put if you think the market is going down. If it stays the same or goes up the option seller keeps the premium."

"in both examples your odds of winning are only one in three if you buy an option."

"it gets even worse for the buyer. Think of health insurance. If a person has cancer, smokes, drinks and works in a high risk job such as construction do you think the insurance company will charge him a low premium? Of course not, the premium will be very high to compensate for the added risk of illness accident or death. Even if this poor soul dies it is of no concern for the insurance company. The premiums collected from all high risk clients such as this man will more than compensate for any of these individuals dying. The same is true for markets. Call and put options for the japanese yen are very expensive. In fact the market can move in your favor and you may only break even or lose money. The reason is simple. The yen is highly volatile and the option seller must charge a high premium to protect himself against adverse price movement."

"as a options buyer, you may be correct in market direction and still lose money."

"observe the prices for december 2000 options. The 950 call is sold for 20 points or 2000 rm . That means that the price of the december futures must go to 970 for the call buyer to break even. The 700 put is sold at 35 points or 3500 rm. That means that the december future must fall to 665 for the put buyer to break even."

bookie options trading

the call buyer would lose all his money if price closed at 950 on dec 29 the expiration of the december futures contract.

These are theoretical premiums as options have not yet been launched on klse futures. Once they are launched premiums will probably be even higher.

"are you beginning to understand? To make a profit, you must be correct in market direction and price has to make a major move in that direction no wonder 80% of option buyers lose money."

who are the players and what motivates them?

Bookmaker explained, "there are two groups of players in options. The buyers and the sellers. You, my friend hope chaser, are a buyer. That is why you lose consistently. You buy and you hope the market moves in your favor. You play options like a buyer of social welfare lottery tickets. You buy hope. Have you ever known anyone who consistently makes money buying lottery tickets? The only consistent winner is the underwriter. For every dollar taken in only 60% is paid out."

"the seller of options uses the same tactics as a lottery underwriter, insurance company or casino."

"these businesses assess risk, levy a premium, and get rich."

"their edge can be your edge. You as an option seller will win 80% of the time."

trade with an 80%+ chance of making money on every trade !

Bookmaker was always happy to share his knowledge. His mission in life was to earn consistent profits from the market and teach a few worthy souls his moneymaking strategy.

"chasing hope, why do you buy calls and puts when most of the time you lose?"

hope answered "i buy them because i have hope to make huge profit with only small premium risk."

bookmaker made his usual frank comment, "most of the time you lose your premium don't you. Better you should sell hope than buy it?"

this leads to bookmaker's rule #1:

never be a buyer of an option, be a seller because it is a proven, statistical fact that 80 % of options expire worthless. If you buy an option your chances of winning are only 20 %. If you are a seller of an option your odds of winning are 80 %.

"this sounds like a winner, how do i sell options and how do i protect myself should the market go against me? I am afraid to be a seller of options because the brochure from my brokers said that sellers of options have unlimited risk," asked chasing hope.

Bookmaker replied, "options are like anything for sale. Buyers and sellers come together in a marketplace and decide on a price. The process to be implemented is similar to buying a share or futures contract. Buyers and sellers are matched electronically. In us options markets buyers and sellers are matched using an open outcry system. Risk is managed by having a pre existing plan to cut losses should your position go against you. Here is a simple plan you can use."

bookie trading strategy

"this plan puts time on your side. An option seller put money into his pocket every day."

"if january soybeans settled between 550 and 475 by expiry. The seller would collect 22 cents for the 550 call and 10 cents for the 475 put. This would be a profit of 1600 us$ as each cent in grains = 50 us."

"to protect yourself from unlimited loss you would place a protective buy stop at 550 and a protective sell stop at 475. If the future price reached those levels you would immediately liquidate the entire position. You would take a loss on one option and a profit on the other option as well as a small profit on the futures. There is less than a 20% chance of this happening."

this was bookmakers rule #2:

use the same winning plan as casinos, put time on your side.

the bookmaker explained: "casinos are in the hope and dream business. They sell the dream that you can make $2,000,000 by investing only one dollar in the one arm bandit. Have you ever seen anyone win a jackpot? Usually what happens, a player will start with a few hundred dollars and lose all. The player keeps pulling the handle hoping that the next pull will be a big jackpot. Time is the enemy of the player because the longer he plays the more money he loses the result is empty pockets. Time is on the side of the casino."

"in options trading, time is on the side of the option seller. Each day that passes the option becomes worth less."

"here, my friend hope, is an example of an option selling plan with live cattle. Live cattle which is traded on the chicago mercantile exchange is an excellent market for an option seller. Most of the time live cattle congests in a range. You may sell both puts and calls at the same time."

bookie options trading

"by selling the 70 call and 65 put you would take in a premium of 2.85. Since live cattle is 400 us$ for each cent that would mean you collect 1140 us$ of premium."

"if price remained between 65 and 70 until expiry of the december contract, you would earn the entire premium."

"do not forget to manage your risk. Remember what the broker brochure said. Sellers of options have unlimited risk."

"set a mental stop to liquidate your options position. Never let a options to get in the money "

this is bookmaker's most important rule, rule #3:

if you sell an option, never let your options get in the money unless you place a buy or sell stop on the actual futures contract.

Tc

danpickup

thank you so much for a wonderful post....
Informative and educative as well...

Thanks again
 

DanPickUp

Well-Known Member
Yes, One need some rest and relaxation after a heavy copy paste job:D

Here is the original article by Dave Foo
Hi Niranjanam

Thanks for this link. Why did you not bring it in her before? The above post was posted her in traderji two years ago and that is why I was asking if others remember. With your link now we even have some charts to see the explanation pictured. Thank you. :)

If you have an other interesting article about what ever, please post it here as there may is some thing to think over and then relax again :D.

DanPickUp
 

AW10

Well-Known Member
We are in October dear, and you are setting target for April. (just kidding).
There are 3M's of trading - Mind, money and method. Implementing mind related stuff is ongoing process, Money mgmt IMO, comes at second stage. But foundation is Method.
without a Method - system, set of rules to govern your trading, to bring discipline into your own activities are the Foundation.
So, do you have a system, which is profitable, and you you have high degree of trust in it. Otherwise, this should be first step to master.
Parallely, you can start setup and follow Pre market preparation routine (daily or weekly).

Content and perfection in them is not important at this stage, but getting in habit of doing it irrespective of result of trading is more important. Taking first step and then sticking to this the most difficult task. You can alway improve them as you along.

Depending on your personality, either u can do i privately or can start a thread in TJ and post your routine in that thread. You may or may not find visitors to the thread. Idea is not go get visitors but to develop a new habit for yourself. So irrespective of peoples response if you can carry that on for some time, till it become a habit for you. Few such good threads started on TJ but never remained active for more than a month or two.

Hope this helps
happy trading
 

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