Taxation Discussion

lemondew

Well-Known Member
#11
Re: General Trading Chat

yes true. its safe to get audited. It would also be good to figure out how to argue the case in case you dont audit with so many loop holes and no clear cut rules

how abt a lawyers interpretation. i guess though it seems very boring and waste of time but its imp to know legally where and how we stand in case we ve to fight this case.

Then we can make a cost analysis. Lets say you dont audit for 4 years and save 80K. Then lets say you pay the lawyer to fight against the IT guys in case they catch you. Then plan the legal costs involved.

We decide whether to pay MR LAWYER or MR CA


My dear friend, it is not a question of what you and I think ( or like) . The law says that if one falls under audit critaria , he needs to get his accounts audited. Or run the risk of getting caught and face the music thereafter.

Smart_trade
 

lemondew

Well-Known Member
#12
Re: General Trading Chat

If I have 60 lacs turnover as per 44 AD 8% of my turnover or 5 lacs is my income in FO trading lets say my other income is say 3 lacs

Then I ll be paying tax on 8 lacs inspite of haveing an income of 3 lacs (other source) + loss 50000 (FO)?
have i understood this wrong?

Don't get confused and make people confuse... how many of you really cross 1cr of turnover for compulsory audit !!!...


TURNOVER U/S 44AD ...

Individuals engaged in future and options should keep in mind following things for Income Tax Return filing:
Taxable as Business Income

As per the provision of the Income Tax Act, 1961, income from futures & options (F&O) is treated as normal business income. Thus, profit or loss from such business (F&O) will be taxable as income under the head profits and gains of business or profession whether or not the assesse is carrying on any other business or profession.

Tax will be charged on such income at the normal rates applicable to an individual.
Compliances in case of Profit & Loss

If there is a loss in F&O, here provisions of section 44AD will apply and accordingly audit of books of accounts will also be required. The provision of this section mandates disclosure of at least 8 % of net profit on the gross turnover.

So, in case the assesse does not discloses the same (less than 8 per cent or loss) , the assesse will be required to maintain books of accounts and is required to get tax audit under provisions of section 44AA and 44AB. Thus, pursuant to this change, income from business cannot be below 8 per cent of the gross turnover in any circumstances.

So, if there is a profit in F&O and you are disclosing 8% or more of total turnover as profit then only the income has to be declared as business income and accordingly ITR has to be filed. There will be no need to maintain books of accounts and of audit.
Turnover Calculation

Now, here comes the point calculation of turnover. Determination of turnover in case of F&O is one of the important factors for every individual for the income tax purpose. Turnover must be firstly calculated, in the manner explained below:

The total of positive and negative or favorable and unfavorable differences shall be taken as turnover.
Premium received on sale of options is to be included in turnover.
In respect of any reverse trades entered, the difference thereon shall also form part of the turnover.

Here, it makes no difference, whether the difference is positive or negative. All the differences, whether positive or negative are aggregated and the turnover is calculated.
Tax audit under Section 44AB

As Futures & options (F&O) is treated as normal business income, so, if the total sales, turnover or gross receipt from business for the previous year relevant to assessment year exceeds Rs. 60 lacs in FY 2010-11 & 2011-12 (Rs. 1 crore from the FY 2012-13) then its mandatory to get books of accounts audited.
 
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#13
Re: General Trading Chat

yes true. its safe to get audited. It would also be good to figure out how to argue the case in case you dont audit with so many loop holes and no clear cut rules

how abt a lawyers interpretation. i guess though it seems very boring and waste of time but its imp to know legally where and how we stand in case we ve to fight this case.

Then we can make a cost analysis. Lets say you dont audit for 4 years and save 80K. Then lets say you pay the lawyer to fight against the IT guys in case they catch you. Then plan the legal costs involved.

We decide whether to pay MR LAWYER or MR CA
You seem to have absolutely no idea of how much tax litigation costs....a good lawyer ( not the top notch ...they charge over Rs 1 L per appearance) will charge you min 20 -25 K per appearance and there could be multiple appearances....also the penalty is Rs 1 L ....add to that a mental tension for 6-8 months minimum...and then come to own decision...

Smart_trade
 

cinderblock

Well-Known Member
#14
Re: General Trading Chat

For the specific case lemondew posted, the IT department is not going to spend even 1 minute worth "man-hours" pursuing the case. The cost of pursuing lemondew's case will be worth more than any potential recovery even if he were making a modest profit!

So, there's really NO chance of an IT inquiry here. BUT, it's good to file a return to keep the records updated and a chance to net losses in future years.
 

XRAY27

Well-Known Member
#15
Re: General Trading Chat

If I have 60 lacs turnover as per 44 AD 8% of my turnover or 5 lacs is my income in FO trading lets say my other income is say 3 lacs

Then I ll be paying tax on 8 lacs inspite of haveing an income of 3 lacs (other source) + loss 50000 (FO)?
have i understood this wrong?
Limit is 1cr..not 60lacs ... read carefully

Now, here comes the point calculation of turnover. Determination of turnover in case of F&O is one of the important factors for every individual for the income tax purpose. Turnover must be firstly calculated, in the manner explained below:

The total of positive and negative or favorable and unfavorable differences shall be taken as turnover.
Premium received on sale of options is to be included in turnover.
In respect of any reverse trades entered, the difference thereon shall also form part of the turnover.

Here, it makes no difference, whether the difference is positive or negative. All the differences, whether positive or negative are aggregated and the turnover is calculated.
 
#16
Re: General Trading Chat

As per current defination of "turnover" ( though it is faulty in my view) traders trading options are at a disadvantage than traders trading futures....options increase the turnover very fast...

Smart_trade
 

sangram1705

Well-Known Member
#17
Re: General Trading Chat

You seem to have absolutely no idea of how much tax litigation costs....a good lawyer ( not the top notch ...they charge over Rs 1 L per appearance) will charge you min 20 -25 K per appearance and there could be multiple appearances....also the penalty is Rs 1 L ....add to that a mental tension for 6-8 months minimum...and then come to own decision...

Smart_trade
ST da,
The no. of CA who audit this are also less in nos. I was discussing with my friends who are C Accountants. Earlier they have helped me file my IT returns (income from salary), but when asked about this they seemed to have no idea.
so may be 20-25k is correct charges for the short in supply CAs.
I think this will also lead to not filing of IT returns for many genuine & honest traders.
 

Iron_Man

Active Member
#18
Re: General Trading Chat

Some good discussion around taxes. Nice. Don't mix paying taxes and getting audited.

Paying Taxes - You have to pay as long as your trading income+other incomes fall under IT bracket.

Getting Audited - When turnover is > 1 Cr and income < 8%.

Here is a link to Zerodha's old post on audit and what comes under turnover.

http://zerodha.com/z-connect/trader...rs/notice-under-section-139-9-possible-reason
 

LivetoTrade

Well-Known Member
#19
Re: General Trading Chat

As per current defination of "turnover" ( though it is faulty in my view) traders trading options are at a disadvantage than traders trading futures....options increase the turnover very fast...

Smart_trade
I think, if the interpretation read as, "premium collected from writing options" rather than "sale of options" there would be more clarity to the turnover issue.
 
#20
Re: General Trading Chat

ST da,
The no. of CA who audit this are also less in nos. I was discussing with my friends who are C Accountants. Earlier they have helped me file my IT returns (income from salary), but when asked about this they seemed to have no idea.
so may be 20-25k is correct charges for the short in supply CAs.
I think this will also lead to not filing of IT returns for many genuine & honest traders.
If the accounts books are written ( entered on Tally),profit/loss figures given by us and the turnover figures provided by us, then the charges go down to 10-12 K.

ST
 

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