Journey of an Intraday NIFTY Trader with 5 Lakh Initial Capital - REAL TRADES

Disclaimer: I will be brutally honest, and hence my comment might not look good to many.

When you start a trading diary/thread saying you have been a full-time trader and in markets for more than 15 years, there is a different level of expectation and standard being set from the very first, and sometimes it is difficult to keep up to that.

The excel sheet where the trades and P/L is documented i can see around more than 20% of capital is already gone in less than 3 months. With this kind of drawdown there is obviously a question raised in inner-mind. How does one survive full-time for 10-15 years trading where there is already a draw-down of 20% in 3 months.

If i have excess money, and i don't know where to spend, i would rather donate it to the poor, than draining it in the markets with some un-tested strategy which doesn't work.

*** Sorry again but i just spoke my mind - please feel free to ignore and enjoy your trades.
To each his own. Let's not be judgemental. It's good that the member appreciates the forum and posts his results here. Many members would find that useful.
 

sumosanammain

Well-Known Member
Disclaimer: I will be brutally honest, and hence my comment might not look good to many.

When you start a trading diary/thread saying you have been a full-time trader and in markets for more than 15 years, there is a different level of expectation and standard being set from the very first, and sometimes it is difficult to keep up to that.

The excel sheet where the trades and P/L is documented i can see around more than 20% of capital is already gone in less than 3 months. With this kind of drawdown there is obviously a question raised in inner-mind. How does one survive full-time for 10-15 years trading where there is already a draw-down of 20% in 3 months.

If i have excess money, and i don't know where to spend, i would rather donate it to the poor, than draining it in the markets with some un-tested strategy which doesn't work.

*** Sorry again but i just spoke my mind - please feel free to ignore and enjoy your trades.
I know this person since the last 12 years now. And this is just a small experimental account. By the way, the owner of the thread is used to receiving monthly certificates from Zerodha, winning their challenge every month consecutively. You have people like him, that compelled Zerodha to stop refunding brokerage to the winners
 

kingsmasher1

Well-Known Member
I know this person since the last 12 years now. And this is just a small experimental account. By the way, the owner of the thread is used to receiving monthly certificates from Zerodha, winning their challenge every month consecutively. You have people like him, that compelled Zerodha to stop refunding brokerage to the winners
You might be correct - i am not denying that, but poeple generally tend to believe what they see through their own eyes than rather what they hear, and what i wrote is based on what i see live in the P/L sheet.
 

sumosanammain

Well-Known Member
You might be correct - i am not denying that, but poeple generally tend to believe what they see through their own eyes than rather what they hear, and what i wrote is based on what i see live in the P/L sheet.
We meet regularly, he shares his certificates with me every month . It's a P/L in an excel sheet for a particular system, not his ledger.
He trades quite a few systems. It's an experiment that is being run through it's course. Don't worry, he is comfortably profitable.

You might be correct - i am not denying that, but poeple generally tend to believe what they see through their own eyes than rather what they hear, and what i wrote is based on what i see live in the P/L sheet.
 

milkyblack

Well-Known Member
I am following this thread from day 1 and it is a great effort from you Sir. Kudos to that.

Would like to share some observations from my side. I am also trying to be a mechanical trader but compounding part is really interesting. Kindly take this in the right spirit.

1. It has been 5 months Sir and the account is in drawdown from day 1.
2. It never went above the capital of 5L for not even a day.
3. None of the month was +ve
4. 5 months of time drawdown is too much for intraday trading
5. As you are a experienced trader, you know that underwater for months together tells that something wrong with the system.
6. Did you go back and see what went wrong in the last 5 months? Market went through various cycels in intraday in the last 5 months and i am confident that your system should have worked atleast for 1-2 months.

If you can share your answers for these questions, it would really let the followers of this thread like me to understand few things Sir.

1. How are you managing this psychologically? I understand this is an experiment account but still money is money.
2. What was your worst time drawdown in backtesting?

Thanks in advance Sir.
Well this is the beauty of a forum where one can be anonymous and still post his or her views, and I really appreciate this anonymity for various reasons. One of them being members can share openly what s/he thinks which most of the time has helped me to broaden my horizon of thoughts, so I thank again to everyone to take a keen interest in this thread and sharing your thoughts.
As mentioned none of the months are in profit until now, I have to agree to that. These are the PNL month wise
Oct 2019 -72324
Nov 2019 -60622
Dec 2019 -19017
January 2020 +6214
But I have to share something, I have abandoned the trading system on 4th December 2019, and the trades taken thereafter (5th December there was no trade as per the system, so 1st trade was on 6th December) are based mostly on my primary strategy. Now doing so there have been issues too that I have faced in punching orders in multiple accounts and thus missing few of the trades, as this account takes the last priority in punching orders. Like in last few days including today, this account missed few profitable trades. The net profit from 5th Dec until today is Rs 14716/- (which is 4%, though just looking at % return is irrelevant, and is a way for many trainers and coaches to boast with this figure) which excludes the missed trades. When I started out as a trader I never intended to become a trainer or coach or anything as such, and the same principle stands even today. But as a trader I want to move on to the next level and thus I started this thread.
So this post of yours come at a right time, when I myself was considering to halt this project as I am doing injustice to this account in particular. The trades that work are pretty quick and I am finding it difficult to place orders in multiple accounts. So this account will always underperform.
Also I see many are fixated to the % return and drawdowns of the account which looks pretty big in this case to many, and might look tiny to the experienced ones.
You also asked if it is psychologically challenging to be in drawdowns. I have to add to this that there are other factors that add up to the psychological issues too, but I have learnt over the years that the issues will always be there and more we grow it’s going to be even bigger, so it’s better to accept it and try to handle it. One of my trend trading system, has a stat of just 33% hit rate from September 2019 till today, imagine the drawdown in it, but then the execution of it is pretty simple so I mostly do not miss a trade in that. I did miss out on exiting the shorts just at the trail SL on the Nirmala Sitharaman candle day, as I was travelling and was managing positions from my mobile device, so I had to exit a bit late, which looked very early by the end of the day though. And I missed out on the longs too on that day, it was bit challenging on my mind on that day, but just reminded myself next day that the only way out here on is to stick to the system consistently. I think that is the key to take care of the psychological challenges.

Thank you for following this thread closely and giving your valuable inputs :)
 

milkyblack

Well-Known Member
Disclaimer: I will be brutally honest, and hence my comment might not look good to many.

When you start a trading diary/thread saying you have been a full-time trader and in markets for more than 15 years, there is a different level of expectation and standard being set from the very first, and sometimes it is difficult to keep up to that.

The excel sheet where the trades and P/L is documented i can see around more than 20% of capital is already gone in less than 3 months. With this kind of drawdown there is obviously a question raised in inner-mind. How does one survive full-time for 10-15 years trading where there is already a draw-down of 20% in 3 months.

If i have excess money, and i don't know where to spend, i would rather donate it to the poor, than draining it in the markets with some un-tested strategy which doesn't work.

*** Sorry again but i just spoke my mind - please feel free to ignore and enjoy your trades.
I believe somewhere in the thread or maybe in the excel I have mentioned that SL for the account is set to 3L. Unfortunately everyone wants a share of profit without risking anything.


You might be correct - i am not denying that, but poeple generally tend to believe what they see through their own eyes than rather what they hear, and what i wrote is based on what i see live in the P/L sheet.
Completely agree about seeing with own eyes, but just point me to few people over the internet who would disclose anything on a regular basis. That is trade book etc. Not paper trades.

We meet regularly, he shares his certificates with me every month . It's a P/L in an excel sheet for a particular system, not his ledger.
He trades quite a few systems. It's an experiment that is being run through it's course. Don't worry, he is comfortably profitable.
Thanks for your kind words. You should share your insights about your vast experience and trading psychology in this forum, I am sure many of us will benefit :)
 

AJK

Active Member
There are only probabilities, nothing is 100% accurate as it's a collection of individual minds that make market. So in my opinion, asking someone to exhibit accurate works only in itself is pointless in the first place. The point would be what we could learn and profit mutually.. Knowledge is the real profit...
 

XRAY27

Well-Known Member
Well this is the beauty of a forum where one can be anonymous and still post his or her views, and I really appreciate this anonymity for various reasons. One of them being members can share openly what s/he thinks which most of the time has helped me to broaden my horizon of thoughts, so I thank again to everyone to take a keen interest in this thread and sharing your thoughts.
As mentioned none of the months are in profit until now, I have to agree to that. These are the PNL month wise
Oct 2019 -72324
Nov 2019 -60622
Dec 2019 -19017
January 2020 +6214
But I have to share something, I have abandoned the trading system on 4th December 2019, and the trades taken thereafter (5th December there was no trade as per the system, so 1st trade was on 6th December) are based mostly on my primary strategy. Now doing so there have been issues too that I have faced in punching orders in multiple accounts and thus missing few of the trades, as this account takes the last priority in punching orders. Like in last few days including today, this account missed few profitable trades. The net profit from 5th Dec until today is Rs 14716/- (which is 4%, though just looking at % return is irrelevant, and is a way for many trainers and coaches to boast with this figure) which excludes the missed trades. When I started out as a trader I never intended to become a trainer or coach or anything as such, and the same principle stands even today. But as a trader I want to move on to the next level and thus I started this thread.
So this post of yours come at a right time, when I myself was considering to halt this project as I am doing injustice to this account in particular. The trades that work are pretty quick and I am finding it difficult to place orders in multiple accounts. So this account will always underperform.
Also I see many are fixated to the % return and drawdowns of the account which looks pretty big in this case to many, and might look tiny to the experienced ones.
You also asked if it is psychologically challenging to be in drawdowns. I have to add to this that there are other factors that add up to the psychological issues too, but I have learnt over the years that the issues will always be there and more we grow it’s going to be even bigger, so it’s better to accept it and try to handle it. One of my trend trading system, has a stat of just 33% hit rate from September 2019 till today, imagine the drawdown in it, but then the execution of it is pretty simple so I mostly do not miss a trade in that. I did miss out on exiting the shorts just at the trail SL on the Nirmala Sitharaman candle day, as I was travelling and was managing positions from my mobile device, so I had to exit a bit late, which looked very early by the end of the day though. And I missed out on the longs too on that day, it was bit challenging on my mind on that day, but just reminded myself next day that the only way out here on is to stick to the system consistently. I think that is the key to take care of the psychological challenges.

Thank you for following this thread closely and giving your valuable inputs :)

Few points in trading

1. DD( in points terms) which is main base for capital calculation

2. Draw down months in back test

3. Luck factor calculation

4. Outliers in profit and loss (in points terms)

5. Montecarlo simulation or stress test

6. if all the 5 steps are covered then comes the compounding part

Last......, MM school for F&O is different from normal stock trading

Please post stats of backtest of above system if possible for learning purpose

Psychological issue will not come after you go through above process...people stop at expectancy ratio ,which is only middle part of a system

My reply is on bases of rule based system, if discretionary please ignore above steps..., as well defined compounding is a myth with discretionary methods (IMO)
 
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milkyblack

Well-Known Member
Few points in trading

1. DD( in points terms) which is main base for capital calculation

2. Draw down months in back test

3. Luck factor calculation

4. Outliers in profit and loss (in points terms)

5. Montecarlo simulation or stress test

6. if all the 5 steps are covered then comes the compounding part

Last......, MM school for F&O is different from normal stock trading

Please post stats of backtest of above system if possible for learning purpose

Psychological issue will not come after you go through above process...people stop at expectancy ratio ,which is only middle part of a system

My reply is on bases of rule based system, if discretionary please ignore above steps..., as well defined compounding is a myth with discretionary methods (IMO)
I initially thought of accepting what you posted as it is without further engaging into discussion, but then I thought many members of this forum will get misled by doing so, hence my reply. Might be a long one though.

I just want to point out on one thing first and which is pretty obvious nowadays and that’s many trading experts sharing their mechanical system publicly in a workshop for a fee. And thanks to the social media, many workshop attendees write positive about the outcomes.

Now based on above what can be seen is that soon we will have many rule based mechanical traders, compounding their capital in no time right? Only step number 3 will hold a trader back from making money as the other steps are pretty easy and simple, isn’t it? So now anyone can quit job get couple of lakhs capital and make it 5x in a year. Am I missing anything here?

Second obvious point is, there are many computer geeks, maths geeks, stat geeks etc who can be hired by the big financial firms to build a mechanical system. Now it would be naive to think that it’s very difficult for the subject matter experts to find a system with an edge but a training and workshop guy finds it and sells it too! What’s the catch then? I am sure I don’t have to spell it out.

The only mechanical system that will work is when market stays the same - not just similar. The good part is that the market mostly will stay similar in years down the line. But it’s the discretionary traders experience which will give him an edge to use the specific rules under different market conditions.

If you notice I mentioned rules, but that’s not a mechanical system. I have switched to my original trading strategies from December 4th. And few posts back someone had asked if all the trades taken are of same system, to which I replied yes, just to keep things simple as I never intended to talk about trading system or anything as such. A bit elaborate answer is - different rules for different market conditions and trades based on those rules.

When I started as a full time trader in 2009 I was under the impression of some mechanical system will make me a fortune and that’s all I need, and had similar 7 points approach like you posted. When I shared my thoughts with a trader who was struggling to move beyond 3000 nifty futures (lot size was 50), he just said “it seems so easy for you, wish I can have similar thought process like you” . Of course he was just being kind to me ( I was then trading 200 nifty futures ) as I could have never imagined then what it takes to trade bigger size.

In the same year later I met a person through a good friend of mine, businessman and happened to be nifty trader! I was enthused to know he was a trader and I asked what timeframe he uses and does he do intraday. He did not share the same enthusiasm like mine and before answering anything he just asked “how many nifty do you trade?” I said 200. My answer caught his attention, and just maybe to be double sure he asked “lots?” I said no, 200 nifty futures quantity. He immediately ignored any further conversations related to markets and talked normal stuffs with my friend. While leaving I asked him how many he trades, he said 5000. I asked “lots” ? He laughed and said “I am not a big trader”

What I am trying to say is that, strategy is a very small part in compounding.

Market is ever changing and will keep changing, gain experience, learn from trades, build a mindset.

Now I am giving rest to my thumb


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

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