Indian Brokers offering Algo Trading to Individual Traders(Reposting)

[sumitalwar]

i contacted sharekhan .

no proper response from them.

they even dont have a full fledged algo trading division

 

[Sagaya]

Hi!

An interesting intiative taken by a Discount broker for Algo trading(Semi automatic) for Retail clients,Please click the link below

http://www.compositedge.com/trading/trading-tools.php

Cheers!!

 

[Algo]

Just posting what I came to know about Symphony/Omnesys Nest API.

Regarding the costs of the platform.

For a retail trader to have the platform with Symphony.

1.One time engagement fees - 25000 rs.
2.Implementation charges - Approximately 2 lakhs.
3.Monthly charges - 7500 Rs.

Limitation with selection of broker - composite while other cheaper flat brokers are available.

Advantages - Not just automating the charting buy/sell signals.
Position sizing - Scaling in out.
Multiple strategy and multi security execution with Dashboard.

While with NestPlus Api
125 rs / per month.
Just automating the buy sell signals with Ami is possible.
Rest entire algo platform has to be built.

Hi,
I think Symphony has drastically reduced their costing..got this mail some days back from them. They are giving licenses for 4000 something while i bought a years subscription much higher.

"Dear Sir,

Greetings from Symphony Fintech. On the occasion of being among the top 20 finalists for ET NOW 2013 Leaders for Tomorrow award & a grand farewell to 2013, we are thanking Indian Trading Community by offering the lowest costs for fully Automated Trading with our oldest Partner Discount Broker

Please click http://symphonyfintech.files.wordpr...13-commercials-from-symphonycompositeedge.pdf for our revolutionary pricing, thanking all of you for the support all these years.

If you have still not seen the demo of Presto Algo Trading System please reply to this mail for free educative webinar registration.

For more details on what all products we offer for Indian Traders visit http://www.symphonyfintech.com/products.html "

 

[Algo]

@Algo

An excellent study of the brokers! Yes, I think you qualify as an expert.

Though I posted several times in TJ but it bears repetition I believe-the issue of risk management, especially for people using AMI and N+, like me who want to go FULL auto way.

1) how these brokers manage slippage
2) how these brokers manage missed trades due to other reasons not due to the trader
3) how these brokers manage price mismatch (AMI signal and trade)
4) how these brokers manage wrong signals occasionally sent by AMI
5) how these brokers manage lot size mismatch in exit and entry trades (2 lots ordered, 1 traded but 2 squared)

Hope no one would guillotine me for the nagging repeats After all, these events produce substantial erosion of profits, don't they?

PS: my broker has just given me an API(?) to mend a part of the fence which I will start testing on Monday. They say this may reduce some mismatches significantly:thumb:

Hi Thanks for your praise. Let me see if i can answer your queries:

1) how these brokers manage slippage
Ans They have execution stratgeis to manager risk at multiple level. Like my execution algo connected with AmiBroker triggers(I just take Buy/Sell signals from my 3 AFLs) has risk defined for each symbol. for e.g. if get a loss of more than 25000 in an intraday with that logic or 5000 with that symbol or 50000 in an intraday everything should be squaredoff and no more entry is allowed. Plus broker based RMS has all the details i suppose

2) how these brokers manage missed trades due to other reasons not due to the trader
Ans That is tricky. depends on strategies. Sometimes manual signals are allowed if by chance signal is missed.

3) how these brokers manage price mismatch (AMI signal and trade)
Ans I take just Buy Sell from amibroker and via internet order goes to exchange server where my algo system with dealer dashboard is located. so robo system takes live broadcast feed.
4) how these brokers manage wrong signals occasionally sent by AMI
Ans In my execution algo i have a parameter : To take signal on close of candle or not. So if its a wrong signal my robo dsnt take the signal. Also when there are spikes in the market i do not let robo take it as a SL. so all this depends on how your execution algo performs.
5) how these brokers manage lot size mismatch in exit and entry trades (2 lots ordered, 1 traded but 2 squared)
Ans again execution strategies takes care of these things .

 

[Algo]

i contacted sharekhan .

no proper response from them.

they even dont have a full fledged algo trading division

They are very dismissive of us small traders. I also had an account with SSKI once but moved to a discount broker.

 

[sumitalwar]

now under the december offer symphony with composite edge has reduced prices substantially.


composite edge seems to be customer friendly organisation

regards

 

[sandip1952]

Hi Thanks for your praise. Let me see if i can answer your queries:

1) how these brokers manage slippage
Ans They have execution stratgeis to manager risk at multiple level. Like my execution algo connected with AmiBroker triggers(I just take Buy/Sell signals from my 3 AFLs) has risk defined for each symbol. for e.g. if get a loss of more than 25000 in an intraday with that logic or 5000 with that symbol or 50000 in an intraday everything should be squaredoff and no more entry is allowed. Plus broker based RMS has all the details i suppose

2) how these brokers manage missed trades due to other reasons not due to the trader
Ans That is tricky. depends on strategies. Sometimes manual signals are allowed if by chance signal is missed.

3) how these brokers manage price mismatch (AMI signal and trade)
Ans I take just Buy Sell from amibroker and via internet order goes to exchange server where my algo system with dealer dashboard is located. so robo system takes live broadcast feed.
4) how these brokers manage wrong signals occasionally sent by AMI
Ans In my execution algo i have a parameter : To take signal on close of candle or not. So if its a wrong signal my robo dsnt take the signal. Also when there are spikes in the market i do not let robo take it as a SL. so all this depends on how your execution algo performs.
5) how these brokers manage lot size mismatch in exit and entry trades (2 lots ordered, 1 traded but 2 squared)
Ans again execution strategies takes care of these things .

As I re-read your posts certain questions come to my mind. I don't think I have understood fully what you wanted to say.

Slippage What you mentioned was the action that you take after the slippage has occured-such as squaring off trade-which is perfectly usual. But I really wanted to know what the brokers do to minimise or prevent slippage. They need some slippage management algorithm I think.

Price Mismatch Well, yes, everybody would love the process if it was ideal. But the reserved variables in AMI are all based on arrays, right? So you can send to the OMS only the OHLC prices, NOT immediate prices. Do you have code written for these non-OHLC prices to go to the terminal?

Wrong Signal Suppose you have the immediate option chosen and a buy signal is generated and it goes to the OMS and trade is placed. Now this buy signal vanishes and a short appears. What does your algorithm do now?

 

[winglessflyer]

I am personally not savvy in N+ but can it cancel pending orders automatically? For example, if an order signal passed from AMI has remained pending say for 2 mins, can it be programmed to cancel it now? Perhaps you need to write some lines for that?

I believe in AMI no scaling or size modification is possible. But please share, if you can, any new info in this regard.

AMI has not yet become a full scale auto trading oriented environment. We may have to wait for some considerable time.

I believe this is possible. AmiBroker has extensive programming capability, you can code it to scale your orders based on previous trade results. May be you need advanced position handling algorithm.

I don't think N+ offers any other feature than market order submission, bcos they don't postback. anybody else ever done this?

 

[winglessflyer]

@Algo

An excellent study of the brokers! Yes, I think you qualify as an expert.

Though I posted several times in TJ but it bears repetition I believe-the issue of risk management, especially for people using AMI and N+, like me who want to go FULL auto way.

1) how these brokers manage slippage
2) how these brokers manage missed trades due to other reasons not due to the trader
3) how these brokers manage price mismatch (AMI signal and trade)
4) how these brokers manage wrong signals occasionally sent by AMI
5) how these brokers manage lot size mismatch in exit and entry trades (2 lots ordered, 1 traded but 2 squared)

Hope no one would guillotine me for the nagging repeats After all, these events produce substantial erosion of profits, don't they?

PS: my broker has just given me an API(?) to mend a part of the fence which I will start testing on Monday. They say this may reduce some mismatches significantly:thumb:

Suppose much awaited and logical question that needs more clearer solution.
I wonder why no other big players have not answered these questions? Don't they have answers yet?

Some clarifications:
Brokers never manage anything that traders do. What these brokers are doing is they recommend the service provided by software companies like mine (ValveNet Technologies) to the respective clients who are looking for similar kind of service. It is ultimately the traders responsibility to test and choose the service provider from whom they get better algo trading software.

in your question I'll replace "THESE BROKERS" with "ALGO TRADING SOFTWARES".

Now the time to give you my best answers, sorry for the very long ones, but the question needs more in depth understanding...
1) how these brokers manage slippage

ANALYSIS:
Again Brokers do nothing, they only offer you the facilities to execute your orders. Slippage is out of control. Nobody owns it. When you place a buy market order for xy price there are infinite chances that at the exact the same time 1000 of quantities of buy to be punched in the exchange server. Get to know about L3 data from exchange which give upper hand to big algo players.

There many factors liable for larger slippage.
1) Data Latency: how fast you receive the LTP from the exchange? How quickly you or your charting platform processes it?
2) Charting Performance: What is the time your strategy requires for calculating the Entries & Exits? Major algo traders don't use any charting application they just calculate the values and do the trading. Visual effects eats time & CPU resource which can be effectively used for other processes.
3) The signal transmission rate: how long does it take for a signal to be sent to your order execution API? How fast your API sends the orders to the server? What is the standard of your ISP? Are you using BSNL ???? Oops! or Airtel FTTH?
Most of these factors are technical put together under a single word "LATENCY".

SOLUTION (AS AN ALGO DEVELOPER):
1) Limit order: This is the only solution to those who trade with High Latency and very Poor-Medium trading system. But Limit orders raise the chances for other questions you have placed which I've explained below. If Limit Orders are used BUY for my price or don't BUY. Well your problem is solved, may be some orders might get missed? Unfortunately the best ones will be.

2) Strategy:
2.1) Are you sure your strategy will make profit if you have solution for all these problems?
2.2) Do you think these problems were not faced by traders by doing manual trading?
My answer to 2.2) is Not. I'll discuss about that on a separate topic.

Yes, but you can surely reduce the losses that are being made due to these factors if you have a solution. But at what cost? To overcome these hurdles as an individual trader your cost for proper infrastructure will atleast 2-3 times higher than the losses you make due to this.

2) how these brokers manage missed trades due to other reasons not due to the trader

ANALYSIS:
Actually I'm not clear with this question? Do you mean
1) orders missed due to powercut or internet problem? Basically when these events occur the orders are not at all send the exchange, usually they should exists only at your end.

SOLUTION:
In that case, our Professional Edition of Algo Trading software will check for order viability. IF They don't exists in the exchange it will be destroyed locally also. After killing it, if the API still receives order message then it will try send those orders again to the exchange, only if the power or internet is available.

4) how these brokers manage wrong signals occasionally sent by AMI

ANALYSIS:
I know which strategy you are talking about. To be frank, Destroy those strategies from your PC, just don't Trash them.

SOLUTION:
If you insist then, you should take care, while building your strategy, that these signals are verified properly. Alternative solutions is wait for the High/Low breakout or candle completion. Nothing special really, our common RoboTrade (Algo Trading software) plugin has got pre built options where you can choose whether to wait for the execution until "NEXT NEW CANDLE" is formed or wait till "HIGH OR LOW" of these spiking candles are broken.


5) how these brokers manage lot size mismatch in exit and entry trades (2 lots ordered, 1 traded but 2 squared)

ANALYSIS:
Not miss this, always the last one are the best ones. If you face this problem then definitely what you are using is not at all a professionally built software. Stay away from using. Any ALGO software built on FIX platform should be perfect in this regard.

SOLUTION:
Again, our Professional Edition will check for order viability. Open/Pending orders will be handled completely before placing the fresh orders.

As far as the other factors explained in (1) or (2) I don't think India has got that good infrastructure ready for individuals to take advantage of algo trading from home, unless monitored very frequently. In this regard the Algo Trading softwares are just budding. VPS/Dedicated servers are alternative solutions but again at what cost? How efficient your strategy is? Whats your tendency & Capacity?

So for an individual trader if you have a strategy that is good at picking the trades then you can make good profits, no matter whether you trade manually/automatically & if you miss good trades/bad trades. Will write about how to make a good strategy when time wishes.

I ALWAYS REGRET FOR THOSE WHO LOSE MONEY IN TRADING, BUT THAT'S WHAT TRADING IS ALL ABOUT.

 

[winglessflyer]

Hi,
...
...
SUMMARY:
If you are a small trader doing turnover between 2lac to 50 lac daily you should go ahead and immediately signup with Zerodha or mastertrust (You anyways will not have an execution logic to run with AmiBroker triggers)

If you a trader with turnover more than 50 lac per day and want custom Stoploss, Profit Target, trading in multiple client accounts etc., immediately sign up with symphony.

So let me know if i can claim myself to be an expert in automated trading of India. Personally i am passionate about auto trading and want to become superstar like other people in Traderji with more than 20 greenblocks or whatever that is.

My Best wishes.

I have an idea, how about for smaller or larger trader who can get Approved Algo Trading Software for just 350/- per month, with custom stop loss, Profit Target, Stop Loss order, Order Modification, Position scaling, all these with multiple client management*?