How gap-ups or downs are created in NIFTY futures?

onlinegtrash

Well-Known Member
#1
Guys,

am trying to understand how gap-up or gap-down is created in NIFTY.

I can understand how it can happen with a stock based on demand supply or news.

but with NIFTY, Singapore Nifty futures start trading at proper value even before NSE opens!

How SGX NIFTY futures get their values with in their first second of the opening bell!
I don't think its just based on pre-trade sessions i.e demand-supply of underlyings.

There should be some chain of correlating events assuming no one is big enough to manipulate NIFTY with 100+ points gap up like today!

what are your thoughts?
 

onlinegtrash

Well-Known Member
#3
Dan,

Thanks for the link... it discusses about trading after a gap, am curious about
*how* the gaps are created.

I don't think any actual trades happen during pre-trade session, If I am right,
pre-trade sessions are used to determine the opening price after which market takes
care of itself. Without pre-trade sessions opening-price could be wildly chaotic.
someone correct me if I am wrong.

can Foreign Investors place a HUGE long position in futures market
and doubly huge short positions in options market to cause movements like today?

or its simply a side effect several different correlating events such as USD/INR value + crude oil value + gold prices etc etc.
 

onlinegtrash

Well-Known Member
#4
can Foreign Investors place a HUGE long position in futures market
and doubly huge short positions in options market to cause movements like today?
Lets say if the futures volume to options volume is 1:3 and
obviously leverage is 1:5 i.e you can buy 5 lots of options for every one lot of futures.
Taking long position in Futures and even bigger position in options should be
super attractive strategy!

Could some big fat cats are exploiting the above equation?

but it can also *very* badly backfire, if there is some fellow culprit FDI competitor
plans to profit on this manipulative move! So am not sure how practical things are!
 

DanPickUp

Well-Known Member
#5
Lets say if the futures volume to options volume is 1:3 and
obviously leverage is 1:5 i.e you can buy 5 lots of options for every one lot of futures.
Taking long position in Futures and even bigger position in options should be
super attractive strategy!

Could some big fat cats are exploiting the above equation?

but it can also *very* badly backfire, if there is some fellow culprit FDI competitor
plans to profit on this manipulative move! So am not sure how practical things are!
Could you kindly make an example from a trade with real numbers from Nifty and the strike levels from the options you would take in that so called: Super attractive strategy? Are the options atm, otm or itm?

An other point: In one post you talk about long future and short options and in the above post you talk about buying options and also talk about long future. About what options do you talk: Put or call? Would kindly request you to be in that specific points a bit more clear, as the name of the strategy then is clear to name.

Take care / DanPickUp
 
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onlinegtrash

Well-Known Member
#6
Could you kindly make an example from a trade with real numbers from Nifty and the strike levels from the options you would take in that so called: Super attractive strategy? Are the options atm, otm or itm?

An other point: In one post you talk about long future and short options and in the above post you talk about buying options and also talk about long future. About what options do you talk: Put or call? Would kindly request you to be in that specific points a bit more clear, as the name of the strategy then is clear to name.

Take care / DanPickUp
Hi Dan,

take a huge position in futures and double the size reverse position in options market, that's what I meant.

Since am only guessing a strategy without any empirical evidence or sound knowledge you should treat the following as a blind guess work but
am just stretching my imagination muscles :)!

Lets take today's example: NIFTY gaped up 100 pts 5950 and slipped down to 5800 by 2pm.

Assumptions:
a) you have 300 million $ to trade per day.

b) a 100 million $ long position can move the opening price 100pts up.
with out your 100 m$ markets won't gap up.

c) for every one lot of futures contract traded more than one lot (say 5 lots) of options worth the same price are traded, it could ATM or OTM call or puts.

d) with remaining 200 m$ you easily buy 10 times negative delta in options market.
as we have 1:5 options volume with 200m$ you can control 10 times bigger short position
than your original long position in futures. (it could ATM/OTM CE PE doesn't matter
you take short position of NIFTY in options market).

opening bell rings :)

e) market gaps up 100+ pts becoz of your long position but at the same time
you easily gain 10 times cheaper short position in options market.
This is possible because of condition (c) options volume is assumed to be more than futures volume.

d) now with an evil smile you start to liquidate your 100 m$ long position slowly
you even succeed liquidating your futures long position for 65m$ by after-noon!
you even plan to drag the price much lower when volumes are thin during noon.
(damn look at today's chart by 12:00, a sharp drop happened after 12!)

e) you have your short positions ready for covering at 5800 level.
within 2 hrs after 12 market touches 5800 you start covering your short positions
for say 360 m$ (i.e 80% profit!)

----------
at eod

your investment for the down move: (100-65) = 35 m$
your reward from options volatility : (360-200) = 160 m$

Net profit for the day: 125 m$ and you appear as pure genius :)

-------------

wow... i ve started writing economics fiction stories or did I stumble on an awesome strategy for big money!

The assumptions from a-c should hold true for this story to work.
The numbers are just example hope you get the essence of the argument.
 
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DanPickUp

Well-Known Member
#7
@Onlinegtrash

Ok, will have a look at it and let you know if I can add some thing to it. Maybe not today, but I surely will respond to your post. In the mean time I am sure that others are also able to comment on your post, as the main point is the strategy and not the Millions.

Take care / DanPickUp
 

onlinegtrash

Well-Known Member
#8
@Onlinegtrash

Ok, will have a look at it and let you know if I can add some thing to it. Maybe not today, but I surely will respond to your post. In the mean time I am sure that others are also able to comment on your post, as the main point is the strategy and not the Millions.

Take care / DanPickUp
cool Dan!

just to demonstrate my assumption (c) is true

4,52,525 = SEP 5800PE volume
82,782 = SEP 5800CE volume

3,67,365 = 26SEP2013 futures volume

Net volume of 5800 ATM options is bigger than sep futures volume
if you consider 5600- 6000 level options sure the volume ratio I said in (c) should be true!

----

but something important is missing in my story, this story is supposed to be unworkable!
If it works... then entire market system is broken and unfair!
 

Mr.G

Well-Known Member
#9
The market works on a bid and ask price right? So what if you put an extremely high bid price before the market opens. say market is trading at 6400 and you put bid it up to 7000, the market will gap?
 

toocool

Well-Known Member
#10
Guys,

am trying to understand how gap-up or gap-down is created in NIFTY.

I can understand how it can happen with a stock based on demand supply or news.

but with NIFTY, Singapore Nifty futures start trading at proper value even before NSE opens!

How SGX NIFTY futures get their values with in their first second of the opening bell!
I don't think its just based on pre-trade sessions i.e demand-supply of underlyings.

There should be some chain of correlating events assuming no one is big enough to manipulate NIFTY with 100+ points gap up like today!

what are your thoughts?
I think I am repeating myself here in this forum but

There is not a power under the sun, which can manipulate any liquid, highly liquid markets, obviously I am assuming that stock exchanges are working properly and are an honest entity, and I think Indian stock exchanges now a days are highly liquid and come under an honest exchanges.

Remember we are talking about indexes here, I am also talking about index because index or stocks in the index cannot be manipulated due to immense popularity and liquidity, someone will always always always find it cheaper or inflated according to his /her perspective within billionth of a second (if there is any manipulation ever) so it's highly liquid nature and keen eyes of millions of traders, banks, fii, dii, and other institutions make manipulation an impossible task.

Now since indexes and it's components cannot be manipulated............. Then there is no other answer to the gapup and gapdown other than the theory that prices are a function of mass psychology, if masses are more bullish than bearish markets go up relative to the forces behind and vice versa

If all of the above is true than it also means that prices are in motion every second 24 hours a day non stop without any exception but since markets cannot be operated 24 hours a day, 7 days a week , it means there will be some non discounted price action pending always always always when markets open in the morning...........now if above facts are true, which they are, it's no shocking fact that markets would not ever open @ previous closing day price(99.99 percent times) , there will always be a move, however big or small, it doesn't matter.......


Hence the gapup and gapdown occur :)
 
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