TA and Certification

Linus

Active Member
#1
Hi all,

We in our country, have a growing number of people interested in learning TA, and maybe later on ,one would like become a professional in this field.

Sadly we lack proper training facilities and naturally there is a great deal of confusion all around about this. This the case of mega citys like Mumbai,let alone the smaller towns.

There are TA's popularised by the media, who conduct their own training programmes at exorbitant prices. The question ,how can one learn TA in a couple of days is also open for debate.Besides ,there is no dearth of crooks who want to make a quick buck by fooling you into their training programmes.

Secondly, there is no certifying authority, to assess the skills of TA's. Here everybody is a self learned, self proclaimed TA.

That brings me to an organization in USA, Market Technicians Association or MTA for short. They run exams like Chartered Market Technician , CMT , and is a must there if one wants to become a pro.

For more details check mta.org

Hope one day we will have something like this here.

Regards,

Sunil Saranjame.
 

Traderji

Super Moderator
#2
Learing technical analysis from any of the recognized training centres is one thing but utilizing the information to make profits in the markets is a totally different ball game.

One can read and learn all that there is on the subject of TA but when it comes to becoming a professional trader who can extract profits from the market week after week understanding yourself and how you react to different circumstances in the markets using the various indicators is what is more important.

However in order to master this one has to sacrifice a lot of their time and money (by way of trading losses). Only once you are able to successfuly conquer this hump you will finally succeed.

Many individuals spend many hours and hundreds of thousands of rupees to learn and read all that they can eventually fail because the market behaves much like an opponent who is trying to teach you to trade poorly.

A common formulation of this phenomenon is the concept of random reinforcement. Traders are not rewarded with a profitable trade every time they do something right, nor are they penalized with a loss every time they do something wrong. This makes it exceptionally difficult to figure out what is right and what is wrong.

Think how much easier learning to trade would be if you automatically took a loss every time you failed to follow correct decision-making procedures. At the same time, what if you were always rewarded with a profit when you traded correctly.
 

marcus

Active Member
#3
Traderji is absolutely correct. Why would seasoned traders with years of experience expend time in teaching TA courses and manging other peoples money if they have mastered TA? Wouldn't it be far more profitable to utilize that expertize in trading?

Think about it, analysts like Deepak Mohini and Rajat Bose actually spend more time lecturing in seminars, appearing on television, advising stockbrokers and managing OTHER peoples money rather than trading themselves.

If they are good enough to actually teach others why haven't they become billionaires via trading instead of becoming miilionaires by lecturing, teaching and consultancy services?

One plausible explanation is there is an unaviodable element of risk involved in TA, regardless of how experienced and well informed you are nothing is certain, so its better to have a steady income from other urm TA related activities which do not have the potential to wipe out your savings as opposed to trading where there is no gurantee of a successful trade and moreover the threat of losing your past acumulated profits is very potent. After all traders as good as Livermoore made upto $300 million dollars in the 29' crash and a few years later lost $295 million. I can give you contemporary examples as well.

Another possible explanation is TA lis bothing but eye wash. A lot ot of people consider TA a pseodo science (I'm not saying that I am), buffet himself has repotedly said "I realized technical analysis didn't work when I turned the charts upside down and didn't get a different answer" and "If past history was all there was to the game, the richest people would be librarians."

Take your pick.
 
#4
I agree with you Marcus.

With the kind of experience and knowledge Traderji has we should encourage Traderji to start teaching technicals here on this forum!
 
#5
Neal said:
I agree with you Marcus.

With the kind of experience and knowledge Traderji has we should encourage Traderji to start teaching technicals here on this forum!
wow,Neal.......great to see you posting again.Welcome back!

Saint
 

Linus

Active Member
#6
Hi all,

Nice to have your feedback.

Yes of course. A person who is really good at technicals ,ideally should be able trade equally well. To become a good trader takes a long time and I am aware of the pitfalls.

My major concern is regarding the first phase - of gaining knowledge for which we don't have much recognized sources.

A second concern is of certification. Let us take an example of a young person who has just graduated and have somehow learned TA somewhere.

Being in early twenties let us assume that he does not have much money to trade himself or even if he has the money, he is not yet ready for real life trading. Will he not look for an appropriate job ? Who will give him a certificate that he has learned TA ? Or should the prospective employer gamble on his knowledge ?

As of today , you will agree ,there are no answers.

Thank you all.

Regards,

Sunil Saranjame.
 

shrinivas

Well-Known Member
#7
Ahh..sorry friends.....here comes someone who has a complete different notion from you all.......

certification, college ????????

I remember, when I was in college, while a case study, we were told how important today M.B.A. is to succeed in job life.......
But a question conks me up again and again......
I remember a great man..Dhirubhai Ambani....was he an MBA ??? certainly not..
he showed the world that becoming owner of one of the biggest enterprise of India did not need him a big MBA degree, strong money backup or a strong favourable condition........
Were Tata,Birla MBA's....no, but they had strong business acumen that bought them to those highs..

and regarding certification...friend, what we learn in real life in 10 years of hard experience is taught in the classrooms in 2 years...By all means, I'm not at all against any comments posted here...I'm posting my view...

I always remember my NIIT teachers during 3 years of my classes...I thought they knew everything...but if they knew everything, they had to be in USA, not teaching here for 1000/- bucks......

TA cannot be learnt in 2 days, that's for sure...can it be learnt in 2 yrs..i'm not even sure on that....believe, what is obvious to eyes....

I remember, in ramayan, Lord Rama runs after the golder deer....
Golden deer, that was never heard of.......and this led Ravana enter and take his wife.......

TA is a simple art, to be learnt day by day...you get to know more with each reading..read good books..follow simple trends...if you go for something that is not heard of (the golden deer), the demon will enter and suck up your wealth......

TA, for me, can be learnt with consistent learning......having an attitude of "still there is something more for me to learn".....and lastly, clearing doubts at each part of time.........

this all comes with fast tryping and whatever comes to my mind....so mistakes are bound to creep in...wanted to post something more here.. but would stop as this post is long...I do not want to bore people anymore

all the best..

ganeshhity:D
 

SGM

Active Member
#8
Hello,

Good Debate!

The end game is, to make profits from the markets. Trading is the means and TA is a tool, one of the Tools.

In a chat on moneycontrol some one asked Mr. Ramesh Damani

Q: What are the prospects for a Relation Manager in a brokerage House? The answer was
Ans: "Learn to identify good companies".

Does the answer sounds out of context. May be yes, may be this post also sounds out of context for the thread.

Have a nice day
Happy Investing
Sanjay
 

marcus

Active Member
#9
Neal said:
I agree with you Marcus.

With the kind of experience and knowledge Traderji has we should encourage Traderji to start teaching technicals here on this forum!
Hello Neal nice to meet you and hope to learn from you in the future.

sunil saranjame said:
Being in early twenties let us assume that he does not have much money to trade himself or even if he has the money, he is not yet ready for real life trading. Will he not look for an appropriate job ? Who will give him a certificate that he has learned TA ? Or should the prospective employer gamble on his knowledge ?

As of today , you will agree ,there are no answers.
Yes Sunil, I too agree there should be some sort of certification to help youngsters get employment in TA related work , even if they should be apprentices initially I think it opens a few doors. For example if someone wanted a TA related job in a brokerage house first they'd put him in sales, then he'd work his way up to administration and finally when the company feels he is well versed in the "field" they would consider placing him in TA as a trainee. Today itself I was talking to an Angel broking executive who is currently in sales. When I asked him "why not in TA/FA equity research" he replied "uther jana hai magar aur char, pach saal lag jayenge" despite him having done some private TA courses with indegenous certification. If there was a nationally accepted certification approved by SEBI things may have been a little simpler for those who want to get into TA.


ganeshhity said:
remember, when I was in college, while a case study, we were told how important today M.B.A. is to succeed in job life.......
But a question conks me up again and again......
I remember a great man..Dhirubhai Ambani....was he an MBA ??? certainly not..
he showed the world that becoming owner of one of the biggest enterprise of India did not need him a big MBA degree, strong money backup or a strong favourable condition........
Were Tata,Birla MBA's....no, but they had strong business acumen that bought them to those highs..


Dear ganesh sir, I appreciate your point of view but I think you are talking about exceptions to the rule, I think SGM was talking about the bourgeois public. Every rule has an exception and Ambani was the exception to the rule. When ever anyone has a discussion on ANY subject it is taken for granted that we refer to people like you and me and not the exceptions to the rule. I remember my mathematics teacher (as you remembered your NIIT teachers) saying a teacher makes a difference only too 90% of the students in a class, we do not make any difference to the top 5% and bottom 5%, they are the exceptions to the rule. So after clarifying that would you not agree that formal education in TA (or any subject) would indubitably be an advantage from every point of view?


Saint said:
wow,Neal.......great to see you posting again.Welcome back!

Saint


Dear Saint, thanks for your past guidance but if I may be so bold do you honestly feel that TA actually works or is it simply a calculated guess more often than not and successful traders are only ---> normal traders with exceptional luck AND not any kind of special skill?

Now that I think of it I have never heard the name of even 5 really outstanding successful traders who use TA but I have heard the names of more than 10 really outstanding investors who do not know an iota of TA.

Lets take the case of the most celebrated TA trader who ever lived ... Mr. Livermoore. Is it possible his astounding success was attributed to LUCK rather than TA, and his luck finally ran out after all resulting in bankrupcy several times. Afterall someone has to win the Euro lottery don't they and all it required is luck. Similarly is it plausible to say TA dosen't work and the handful of those who claim it does were just plain lucky the proof being there luck ran out later and they went bankrupt, why did they go bankrupt? Did they suddenly forget all their TA expertise??

On the other those who don't know TA are very successful, Buffet never even went close to bankrupcy, Graham didn't either, out very own R Jhujhunwala hasn't for over 15 years! Have they not??


P.S. I'm not personally suggesting its gobbledygook I'm only presenting another point of view expressed by OTHERS like Buffet and Lynch to name a few (from what I've read) & I'd just like to see how you or other TA counter these statements as I can't do it.


:)
 
#10
Dear Saint, thanks for your past guidance but if I may be so bold do you honestly feel that TA actually works or is it simply a calculated guess more often than not and successful traders are only ---> normal traders with exceptional luck AND not any kind of special skill?

Now that I think of it I have never heard the name of even 5 really outstanding successful traders who use TA but I have heard the names of more than 10 really outstanding investors who do not know an iota of TA.

Lets take the case of the most celebrated TA trader who ever lived ... Mr. Livermoore. Is it possible his astounding success was attributed to LUCK rather than TA, and his luck finally ran out after all resulting in bankrupcy several times. Afterall someone has to win the Euro lottery don't they and all it required is luck. Similarly is it plausible to say TA dosen't work and the handful of those who claim it does were just plain lucky the proof being there luck ran out later and they went bankrupt, why did they go bankrupt? Did they suddenly forget all their TA expertise??

On the other those who don't know TA are very successful, Buffet never even went close to bankrupcy, Graham didn't either, out very own R Jhujhunwala hasn't for over 15 years! Have they not??


P.S. I'm not personally suggesting its gobbledygook I'm only presenting another point of view expressed by OTHERS like Buffet and Lynch to name a few (from what I've read) & I'd just like to see how you or other TA counter these statements as I can't do it.
Hi Marcus,

Let us go to your last paragraph first.......I do realize that you are not trying to put anyone or any system down,but just bringing up something that these great names have previously said..................I agree with you,I am not about to do it as well.Many have walked the FA path and succeeded,many others the TA path and succeeded,many an amalgamation of the two....Many have failed doing any of the above.I am not about to get into the war of words between TA nad FA.

I must tell you though that profits can be made from the markets......that you can trade for a living and live off the markets....that the profits that can be made are limited only by the limitations of your mind........that many have done it and doing it........many that may not written books,or be written on,reclusive,introverted but doing it day after day and laughing all the way to the bank every day,every week,every month,every year.

Whether TA is superior or FA is superior,or who has greater billionaires amongst them really does not matter..........we are here to make profits,and the secret of the successful trader is Discipline and Money Management.The successful trader realises that profits and good risk/money management techniques go hand in hand.TA and FA are at best,entry points,or maybe reasons for it.............money management takes money out of the markets into your pockets!

No,my friend,these traders are not normal people with exceptional luck,they are people who do not believe in Luck.They may say that as they cannot explain the massive profits they make,while their neighbour jumps off a 20 storey building.They bring in words like Luck,Fate,Destiny,God...........but believe me,my friend,when it comes to trading their positions,at that time,none of these words matter.They have a strategy for entry, exits, profits,stops,position sizing and the immense discipline to carry out their plan again,again and all over again..............No,my friend,theirs is not exceptional Luck,theirs is Exceptional Discipline.

Many traders make some great money,and then start off into seminars,books,mentorship programs,workshops,newsletters,etc........these traders(alas!!some of them do all of the above and do not even trade themselves).........it is only this variety that becomes known,called an Expert,a Master,a Guru........that very same individual sans all of the nonsensical paraphrenalia listed above no more attains the name and fame as the people above......but he really doesn't give two hoots.He loves what he does,he loves to pull out money from the markets regularly,and he loves the fact that he can do this all so very quietly.He will have tonnes of money,but you wouldn't know him,would you?Who we know is the loud mouth who comes on TV every day...........

The question is:Why do we know so many investors,and not many traders?Frankly,I know of only traders,but that's another issue...........could it be that as in the case of investors,their investments grow,and their share holdings increase,it becomes public knowledge?Not really sure,my friend..............as far as I am concerned,we are all attracted to different things,and by different things.Even on knowing that FA is the easiest path to Trading Realization,and that TA is just a circuitous,nuisancical roundabout path to the same,I would still choose the latter,as that just is me.And I am sure that you'll find what you are comfortable with and do just that...........to each his/her own,I suppose!And it's very important to figure that one out before jumpimg into anything......

Why do many TA traders crash and burn...........the answer once again is not that they ran out of Luck.Instead it was that they practised poor money management techniques,......... you can get away with such things some of the times,but never all of the times.The market does not punish or reward,it just IS.....It does not give or take away,but when we do not obey its laws,we get thwhacked,we crash and burn......we do that to ourselves.To make 300 million in a bear phase,and give back 295 in a bull phase,he did it to himself.....I don't know his full story,but I do know that if you look into it,somewhere you'll get the answer "Poor or Nil Money Management"The TA trader who went bankrupt never forgot his TA,but his money management skills...........And,somewhere down the line,he forgot his Humility,and Life will find every possible way to punish you.

Okay Marcus......tired and late!!

All the best!
Saint

ps:nice word.....gobbledygook,another one for the vocab.Thanx!
 

Similar threads