Teach A Man To Fish And.........

maddy_invest · #**1601** 11th May 2008, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ruchir131986

hi i m new to TA m feeling it as C&H pattern... but still little beat confused... can u give me furthe details about it??? & also wanna which software do u use??? from where did you learn all this patterns?????

Hi ruchir131986,

Me too is new to TA. I've learnt the patterns from this thread itself.
Saint has described it in a very lucid manner.You can look into the following link.
http://www.traderji.com/technical-an...n-fish-15.html

I was basically looking the charts in http://www.icharts.in when I found it.I don't use any formal trading software atleast till now.

Maddy

Saint · #**1602** 12th May 2008, 10:43 AM

Yikes....7 pages to answer to!.

Apologies for the delay......shall try to catch up

All the best!
Saint

Saint · #**1603** 12th May 2008, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sharestar

Hi Saint,

First of all a big thanks for your pivot trading technique. I have been practicing it since last two three months with my online trading account with a quantity of just 1 share and was reversing my position with 2 shares when I am stopped out - so i was always in trade whether up or down with open position of 1 share. Since I was trying it out with a minuscle quantity it did not matter whether i was wrong or right as i wanted to learn why i am right and why i am wrong.

This system works wonderfully in trending market but gives whiplashes when I am trading shorter time frame . I tried to time my trade with few other indicators and it is working at its best.

My Query :

Set up is -

A stock is in weekly uptrend and I have entered a long trade when it has broken a pivot high on daily time frame.
I have set my stop loss on break of immediate pivot low on daily time frame.

Now -

Once I am in trade at break of pivot high - stock just inches up and retraces back the whole up move back to pivot low and just inches down and my trade stops out - at a deep loss. Some scrips have a range of 30-40 rs between pivot highs and lows and when they are forming expanding traingles - you get stopped out at both the ends. How can you avoid such a trade ?

You can't........one enters as planned,stops put in as planned,and if stops are hit,exits as planned.Position sizing is vital though.Position sized properly,one shouldn't feel any pain if stopped.Some stocks have a stop a Rs 100 away,that's not the problem.Question is:If I bought 100 shares of a stock,and it has a stop a 100Rupees away,then the risk I am putting myself through is Rs10000/=...........If I find losing 10k tough and painful,then position sizing is not done properly.Probably I should have bought lesser amount of shares.......Calculation of position sizing is somewhere in this thread,it's very basic,nothing fancy,just go through it.....

Quote:

I tried to follow my trade daily - and since was getting stopped out , i tried putting my stops on smaller time frame so that I can save on my losses - but that didnt help. It did reduce my losses , but logically i was not correct and was not knowing why should i change to shorter time frame.

If you are trading the daily charts,that means,you are looking at pivots on the daily.......stops are as per the daily.If trading the hourly,then stops are as per the hourly.You could fine tune an entry usng the 60min chart.But stops are as per the daily charts.

Quote:

Also while stock is perfectly exibiting a trend , sometimes the false opening prices use to distort my charts and even indicators and they were giving me false moves. I tried to rectify this by ignoring this price or the movement for first half hour. But than it was not helping always. Does this false opening prices signify something? Is it some kind of a signal that says - the stock should go in that direction and near that price. ( my assumption )

Sharestar,give me a chart,an example......we could go through better when I can see what you see.

Quote:

Also sometimes , stock remain in sideways for long time and you get stopped out at the both the points leaving nothing on table.

My understanding

we can avoid this loss only by knowing that the scrip is a avoid / it is making expanding traingles ( but that I will know only after few loosing trades ) / scrip is in sideways ( that will take atleast two loosing trades ) But then how u can know this ? How to know when not to trade ?

Your help will be appreciated as always.

Thanks for everything.

- Regards

One sets up entry points,and stops,and all that......one also sets up rules that prevent us from trading a few moves,like "If 60 is in a dntrend,and 5 gives me a buy signal,I am not taking it,except if the fall in the 60 is too strong to the down,and a bottoming tail on the 60 indicates a change in trend."

The rules keep me out of many bad trades,and sometimes some good ones.....but that's trading.And a clear cut signal for an entry,.......I take them all.Some fail,some don't.

Importantly,change the mindset from....."This has gotta win,because of the fundamentals,technicals,economy,neighbour who is an investment banker said so...it must win" to "Every trade has a possibility to move either way,one enters when the probability of a move in that direction looks greater.One also realises that it could very well change and go the other direction.Therefore one has safety nets to get out and probably reverse."

Take the "I do..." out of the trade,and go with the Flow.

All the very best!
Saint

Saint · #**1604** 12th May 2008, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SGM

Hello Vineet

Seems even SAINT's need an occasional weekend break ...

Cheers
Sanjay

Ah,Sanjay,my friend.......of late requiring more than an occasional break

Saint

Saint · #**1605** 12th May 2008, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SGM

Hello S. Star

Its very nice idea to trade with 1 share rather than do mock trading. Good work there. I think many guys ( n grls) who are doing paper should start doing this.

You have mentioned that when you are Stopped Out you are Reversing the Position. So when weekly is in an uptrend and you have a long trade on, being stopped out you also go short on a break of Previous Higher Pivot Low on Daily? Isn't it a wrong entry for a Short?

In this case the weekly is in the uptrend, on daily the last higher pivot low is broken but if a Lower Pivot High is not in place, thats not a downtrend even on daily.

From your post it seems that you are doing lots of experimentations, thats very nice. Using indicators is your choice, as they say whatever works for you. You will need a huge sample size to come to conclusion about what is working and what is not. You might also need to do some back testing/walk throughs for your indicators.

Don't change strat or timeframe midway, decide on one thing/combination and stay with it.

Sideways markets are tough to trade, but very good to learn. And yes we do not know in advance they are upon us. Saint has also shown us an effective way to tackle such market conditions.

Regards
Sanjay

As always,some good stuff from you.......

Saint

Saint · #**1606** 12th May 2008, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sharestar

Thanks VVVV/Sanjay,

Yes what you say is correct - if we trade using last pivot high and low as our immediate support and resistence then our trade should be in the direction of the break out - if we are trading intraday/daily time frame and are looking for trade after break out or we should just play between the two ends. I agree and have been doing it successfully.

What Sanjay says - is we should only take position in the direction of the weekly trend if i understand correctly. Means if i am long on break of pivot high - when the weekly is up , i should not reverse my trade when it gets stopped out because that is against the major trend.

To sum up -

Long only - when immediately pivot high is broken and weekly is up. If you get stopped out , book your loss and look for another opportunity to long but do not short. Follow this untill the weekly pivot low is not breeched.

Short only - when immediately pivot low is broken and weekly is down. If you get stopped out, book your loss and look for another opportunity to short but do not go long. Follow this untill weekly pivot high is not breeched.

Perfect as per text book.

But - sometimes i find the distance between pivot high and low is too far for us get stopped out and yet remain profitable. Sometimes i see prices consolidating in a narrow range and forming a compressing traingle or we see a expanding traingle and prices piercing the ends both ways and making me uncomfortable. Also sometimes in a bigger range - there is zig zag price pattern intraday and it stops me out both ways.

I have written all my experience - i have encountered in actual trading and the instances when i have booked loss. Ultimately - what i feel is i lag some training in position sizing. There is no way we can always be in a right trade in a right direction and at a right time. What best we can do is - if we are wrong we make small losses but if we remain right we make big money by holding on to our trade in right direction.

How can we know that price has peaked/bottomed - when there is sudden fast movement in a particular direction and yet it has not breeched any pivots. If we wait for the break of pivot to close our trade , many times virtually we loose lot of points before we actually know that it has peaked or bottomed out. Is there any way - by which we can know - it is time to come out.

Can there be any confluence of indicators which can help us? I am watching RSI/ADX and they dance but ultimately it becomes very difficult to conclude a trade because these too give wrong moves in the direction of the price action but with volumes of little significance. And same remains true for pivot break out with pathetic volumes in uncertain times.

Thanks for reading me and I am sorry if my query is a repeatation - unknowingly.

- Regards

Ah,you have already analysed and understood about position sizing being the problem,more than anything else............Previous post of mine is all just blah-blah repetition then....

And Sharestar,sometimes,we see a move upwards,nearly vertical with 10-12 up-candles,no pivots,then we are not placing stops at pivots,but at the low of 2 bars/candles back,or 1 candle back.

All the best!
Saint

Saint · #**1607** 12th May 2008, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sanjoy_roy

hello Saint Bhai,

Remember, the other day I PM'd you that I had some queries. Well, I thot why not do some combing of our forum b4 bothering you. I can say that most of them have been answered now barring a few. and one of them is --- How does Saint scans the ocean of stocks to find which one has formed the right setup for ENTRY? naked eye or any specific query language?

Hoping that you spot this post and have time to reply.

Thanks in advance,
Sanjoy

Intraday and 60min trades,only select few that I have to pour through......the rest I go through in weekends.......Ah,Yes,all naked eye stuff,too set in my old ways,I guess....

Saint

Bitz · #**1608** 12th May 2008, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ruchir131986

hi i have seen your graph.... i m new to ta.... can u pls tell me what does this red & black line indiacate??????
thanx in advance......

Hi Ruchir,
Me too new to TA...learning frm Saint.
Red line is Moving Avg line and Black lines are drawn by me to highlight the pattern...

To know more abt Saint's teachings go to
http://www.************/network/sear...teach+man+fish
In place of ************ type "4shared(dot)com"
and dwonload the pdf...somebody has done a great job by putting it there...

ruchir131986 · #**1609** 13th May 2008, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bitz

Hi Ruchir,
Me too new to TA...learning frm Saint.
Red line is Moving Avg line and Black lines are drawn by me to highlight the pattern...

To know more abt Saint's teachings go to
http://www.************/network/sear...teach+man+fish
In place of ************ type "4shared(dot)com"
and dwonload the pdf...somebody has done a great job by putting it there...

hey thanx a lot .......
i hope you will share your experience with me.......
i regularly trace yes bank... a have attached chart of it over here... can anyone please comment it???
i m getting difficulty in using amibroker thats why it is from ET...

rakeshluthra430 · #**1610** 15th May 2008, 10:26 AM

Saint,
I have a few questns...please let me know your views:

1. Nifty has broken its last pivot low of 4991 and now its a 'sell on rise' scenario..unless it takes out the prev pivot top. Right??

2. If yes...then in such markets do we BUY shares which show some strength or do we only look for SHORT candidates? Judging by your posts, i feel you buy shares which show some promise...but is there anything else which changes.... for eg small profit tgts, small stoplos etc.

3. Somehow I feel hesitant to take calls in shares which flow against the 'likely' or current direction of Nifty. Even if I do buy (like in current scenario), I book profits too soon...or get out even b4 stoploss is hit which is highly frustrating.

4. Also, when I am short, I can taken only 1 or 2 trades (my money mgmt doesnt allow > risk and shorting poss only in Futures), but for Buy, I find a lot of candidates...so I feel my trading is skewed. How do you resolve this.

Thanks a lot Saint for your valuable time and teachings,

Rakesh.