Market Operators - Do they exist ? Who actually runs the show?

Do they exist in your price/volume observation experience and do they manipulate?


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#11
Another one...

http://openlib.org/home/ila/MEDIA/2005/equitymkt_faq.html

Recent fluctuations in the stock market raised many questions about the determination of stock prices, speculation and market manipulation. Unsubstantiated media reports generated hysteria and images of the BSE Sensex being manipulated. The reality is different. While there may be problems with manipulation of small stocks, it is nearly impossible to manipulate the market index.

q: How is a stock price determined?

a: When you own one share of a company, you are part owner of the company. As owner, you get a share of the profits that are paid out, which is the "dividend" earned by the share. The price of a share reflects the value of all future dividends that the company is expected to give.

q: Why do stock prices go up and down?

a: Changing expectations about the future dividends lead to changed prices.

As an example, suppose there is a company in the oil extraction business. As of yesterday, it's share price would reflect the dividends that it was expected to produce as of yesterday. Now suppose that today an announcement is made that the company has made a big discovery of crude oil. This new information positively changes the outlook for future dividends. Hence, the share price will go up.

Similarly, on 17 May 2004, the outlook for all Indian companies as a whole became much more gloomy when the stock market saw that the UPA was going to be unable to push economic reforms. Share prices fell in response.

Every day, new information unfolds, and share prices move in response to that information. Sometimes people say there is a "law of gravity" that when share prices go up, they have to go down. Numerous people glibly talked about a "long overdue correction". There is no law which says that good news has to be followed by bad news or vice versa. In fact, over the long decades, stock prices have risen dramatically - the BSE Sensex was at just 120 in April 1979. There is no law which says that it has to go back to 120.

q: How does this process, of feeding information into prices, take place?

a: Prices are formed out of the process of speculation on the stock market. A very large number of speculators are constantly watching the thousands of prices in the country. They are looking at all manner of information about the companies. If they feel that a price is "too low", they buy shares. If they feel that a price is "too high", they sell shares. This process of speculation, spread across a very large number of players, is called "speculative price discovery". It is a highly effective method for obtaining informative prices.

q: What about money flows into the market?

a: Many people make a mistake by claiming that for share prices to go up, "someone has to be buying". But for a trade to take place, there has to be one buyer and one seller. If someone is buying, then equally, someone is selling. A newspaper headline "Stock prices went up on heavy FII buying" can equally be written as "Stock prices went up on heavy individual selling".

q: But we always hear that FIIs dominate the stock market?

a: In 2004, FII transactions accounted for 5.8% of the market trading. The tail cannot wag the dog. The dominant force in the Indian equity market is the tens of thousands of individuals operating from all across the country.

q: Why do you claim that these speculators make a "sound" price?

a: Individual speculators have the correct incentives. If a share is "too cheap", some speculators will like to buy it. If a share is "too costly", some speculators will like to sell it. If an individual speculator makes a mistake, he pays the price for it. If he makes a correct decision, he reaps the fruits of it. There are no regulatory or corporate governance problems intruding into his decisions.

Unlike individuals, employees of finance companies, grandiosedly called "financial institutions" are often unable to act rationally. Wrongly drafted regulations routinely forbid rational decisions. And the self-interest of an employee may not lead to correct decisions. A great strength of Indian finance is the small size of sluggish institutional investors and the large size of rational individuals.

q: How many such individuals exist?

a: Nobody knows. But we know that there are 7 million accounts at NSDL. We don't know how many of these are active speculators, involved in price discovery.

q: What is market manipulation?

a: A manipulator starts with (say) Rs.100 crore and chooses a company X. He engages in sustained heavy buying on the market. He might also plant some fraudulent stories about company X in the business press. The price goes up. He hopes to sell out at the high price and walk away holding a cool profit.

q: What are the impediments faced?

a: When a price becomes "too high", rational speculators from all across the country start selling shares of X. Hence, the amount of money required to distort the price is quite large relative to the size of trading (or "liquidity") of the shares of X.

Manipulators do not distort prices for fun: they distort prices in order to make money out of it. The bigger hurdle faced by the speculator is that of getting out of a manipulative position with money. It is one thing to put down a large amount of money into buying shares of X. The difficult thing is selling out and translating this into profit. When a price is known to be too high, no rational speculator will want to buy those shares. The manipulator is often reduced to unethical practices of locating some ignorant public sector bank or FII on whom the shares are dumped at the high price. This carries it's own risks: it might not always be possible, and the manipulator can get caught.

Manipulation will take place when the rational manipulator compares the costs and benefits of manipulation and feels that he has a good chance of making a very high return. More liquidity on the market, and less big money in the hands of ignorant institutional investors, means that there will be less market manipulation.

Over the years, it has become increasingly clear that the biggest traded securities in India are simply too big for anyone to engage in market manipulation. Securities like Nifty, Infosys, Reliance, etc. are vast pools of speculative activity. It is too difficult for a manipulator to affect such prices. As market liquidity has gone up over the years, the problem areas have shifted down to smaller and smaller stocks, such as the recent concerns about companies with share prices below Rs 5, called "penny stocks".

q: What can SEBI and the exchanges do to increase the impediments faced by market manipulators?

a: These impediments are heightened when there is equity derivatives trading and short selling. When these are available, the rational speculator is able to exert pressure even if he does not own shares in X. A key aspect of this is derivatives trading, which empowers people who have knowledge. The equity derivatives are settled in cash: this means that a man who has knowledge but not shares can participate in that market, help restore sanity, and profit from it.

q: Why is it nearly impossible to manipulate stock market indexes?

a: Nifty is the 50 biggest stocks in India. The market capitalisation of Nfity is Rs.12,26,126 crore. Yesterday, Rs.10,184 crore of trading in Nifty derivatives took place. These are all very big numbers. The manipulator would need massive amounts of money to even influence the price. More importantly - it is not clear how he could profit from it.

q: What should the rational reader do?

a: You do not need to be a speculator to enjoy the superior returns of equity investment. You can participate in the growth of the equity market through index funds. Index funds are available on Nifty, Nifty junior and the BSE Sensex. All three have shown handsome profits in recent years, given the growth of these indexes. The BSE Sensex has gone up from 120 to 8600 in the period from 1979 to 2005.

If you do engage in stock speculation, be sure you really know a lot about the companies that you are trading in. And, if you are concerned about manipulation, you are safest when you are in a active stock where there are thousands of other traders.
 

Prabhjeet

Well-Known Member
#12
Thx Prabhjeetji,

Satyam case is totally different..IMHO I would label it as white colored open fraud...let's not go there

1) What is the reason why we are seeing Educomp roughly 200+- Rs everyday since it's listing..what is changing everyday in it's supply/demand or risk/opportunities??

2) Why is Aban falling like a sharp knife with utter silence from everywhere?

3) Why delivery % in all stocks transaction is merely 25% on average on any day - this means only Short/Long selling happening for whooping 75% of the times...
Dear you have to understand the Supply & Demand first of all to understand why such bizarre moves are happening.

For analysing the Supply - Demand I think weekly charts serve as best guide, daily and 60 min. are more of noise without giving actual picture of supply-demand.

Now looking at the cases of Educomp and Aban, there Weekly trend had turned down long time back and I suppose even the Monthly trends are down, so you can expect any kind of sharp moves.

These are the charectristics of Bear Market, all the hope will be beaten out of those who are still Hanging-on till they are so bruised that they dont come back at the start of Bull Market.

And yes about Market operators, let me tell you that everyone thought that FIIs were manipulating Indian markets but it is clear that these Big Instituions have taken the hardest beating. I dont think that somebody sold so many Educomp shares just to manipulate the prices, it was actually due to some Large player exiting, even they want to live to fight tomorrow.

Booms and Busts are the part of Bull and Bear Markets, think of ISPAT which was taken from 15 to 85 rs. during the Boom, now why cant ABAN go from 5000 to 500, it is just froth being taken out.

It is charecteristics of Markets to exaggerate the Bad News during Bear Market. So I advise you to stop looking for some ghost MARKET OPERATORS otherwise you will never be able to appreciate the Harmony of Markets

:)
 

Prabhjeet

Well-Known Member
#13
q: Why do you claim that these speculators make a "sound" price?

a: Individual speculators have the correct incentives. If a share is "too cheap", some speculators will like to buy it. If a share is "too costly", some speculators will like to sell it. If an individual speculator makes a mistake, he pays the price for it. If he makes a correct decision, he reaps the fruits of it. There are no regulatory or corporate governance problems intruding into his decisions.



q: What are the impediments faced?

a: When a price becomes "too high", rational speculators from all across the country start selling shares of X. Hence, the amount of money required to distort the price is quite large relative to the size of trading (or "liquidity") of the shares of X.

Manipulators do not distort prices for fun: they distort prices in order to make money out of it. The bigger hurdle faced by the speculator is that of getting out of a manipulative position with money. It is one thing to put down a large amount of money into buying shares of X. The difficult thing is selling out and translating this into profit. When a price is known to be too high, no rational speculator will want to buy those shares.
I am sorry to say Actuary but you have got the definition of Speculator all wrong. A speculator is neither a Investor who would like to Buy at the bottom or Sell at top, nor a Gambler who will put all his money at stake for any individual bet.

Speculation infact has a very well defined premise. A speculator will try to buy a stock as soon as it makes a high rather than waiting for years when stock is at the Top price, he will get the grip of trend and stay with the stock as long it is acting right, yes acting right is what he looks for, once the stock starts showing the signs of exhausting the trend, he will run with his money and no wait to sell at the worst prices

An intelligent speculator will also make sure that he makes small bets so that he can come back again

I dont know why everyone keeps on interchanging the definitions of Gamblers and Speculators. Anyone and Everyone participating in markets needs to read the book of Jesse Livermore. You will see that everytime he lost money he admitted it was because of his human weaknesses rather than markets that made him loose, markets never beat anybody, we beat ourselves
 

Prabhjeet

Well-Known Member
#14
RULE NUMBER SIX:
IF THIS IS A REAL DEAL, THEN YOU ARE LIKELY TO BE THE LAST PERSON TO BE NOTIFIED OR WILL BE DRIVEN OUT AT THE LOWER PRICES.

RULE NUMBER SEVEN:
CONVERSELY, YOU WILL OFTEN BE THE LAST TO KNOW WHEN THIS DEAL SHOWS SIGNS OF FAILURE.


Ultimately is unfair casino type game ! You need to have edge over rest 95% to be among first 5%...you can never have edge of Sharks !
Who needs to know in First place that even there is a deal or any news about stock going on.

Look I know only 2 kind of sound players in markets Fundamental and Technical guys.

A Fundamental guy will hold on to his stock through thick and thin until all the Fundamental requirements are ok, he would not sell if stock goes up 20% or goes down 20% just on News ( Though I myself dont like this method of investing)

Now for 2 nd type i.e. Technical one, he will know if the prices are soaring there is surely some good news though he doesnt care what the news. Bad news will start the time he starts seeing the Trend reversing.Even thoug he may not be the First or Last on the flight but he would have made money somewhere in between.

There are only these 2 categories which will make money whether news is Good or Bad, if anyone falls in some other Random category then he had to loose anyways, whether the news is good or bad.
 

AW10

Well-Known Member
#15
IMO, there is only "smart money" and the "Dumb money" in the market All the 8 categories given in post 1 are part of smart money. Post 2 is invaluable, IMO. because it summarizes the games that smart money plays. If I, as insignificant player (small fish) in the market, don't understand the rules of the game here then it is the problem with me as player, not with the game. For a small fish, it is important to find where the big fish is, where it is going and get benefited from it. At the same time, avoid coming in front of the big fish.

If we know their methods, then we have to draft our strategy to profit from that and avoid getting hit by that. I might be wrong, but IMO, the fund house pass their order (say Buy order) with a price range and qty to their broker and then it is the job of smart broker, floor trader to fill the order. Broker makes the money only when he can fill that order at that price range or below that range. Now it is broker's smartness on how he gets it filled. He might place multiple buy order of small qty (so that buy gets unnoticed) and few big sell order of large qty (to catch dumb money that selling is stong). But on net basis, he would have bought more qty, then what he sold. We will not know from orders but charts will tell us by showing volumn jump on that day.
If price goes beyond that specified price range, then probably this broker will not chase the price and buy at higher level but he will come in picture as soon as prices comes back to the same price band (And thats what we see on the chart as support , double bottom etc).

We got to define our internal tools /methods to find such action of smart money. For smart money, easiest target is dumb money of novice traders. They know the type of tools dumb players use and they take advantage of it. We like a baby, keep crying that They have taken my toy and not avoid accepting the reality here.

I have no complain against them, but rather I will take them for a cask of beer as my they are my best friends in the market. I believe in charts and know that these manipulations are also visible there (false breakouts etc), important is to develop our ability to see that. And lets accept another reality, that Smart money is not always right. They do go wrong (we have enough of stories around today giving their failures).
As a small player, my biggest advantage is I can be fast and nimble then them to benefit from opportunities presented by them.

Happy Trading.
 

NOMINDTR

Well-Known Member
#16
I do agree with AW10.

There are only two things:
Smart Money vs Dumb Money
Strong Hands vs Weak Hands.

Smart Money is always enter the market with a long term perception and it never sleeps. Smart Money capitalize every move of the market.

It is also important to understand the basic fact that Smart Money is only the huge money from Institutions.

Institutional investments are considered smart in general- The strong hands
Retailers investments are considered dump in general - The weak hands

There are retailers they perform exceptionally well and there are fund managers they play poorly at times.

I don't see any ground to call somebody as "Operator" in the market. Every smart trader try to operate something to certain extend. Operation is a loosely term.

Dames F Dalton classifies market participants as follows, a different perception

1. Innovators
2. Early Adapters
3. First Majority
4. Late Majority
5. Stragglers

He further writes

"To achieve this advantage, you must first discard the belief that there is a linear relationship between risk and reward. The primary objective of investing (and trading) is to identify asymmetric opportunities.To capitalize on these opportunities, you must learn to identify imbalances that reveal themselves in evolving market structure. But that is only the
beginningyou must also understand the way you process and respond to information, so your ability to act is not blocked or distorted by peripheral influences."


IMO, Smart money is in I could smell fresh input of it 3,4 months back.

I see people says "Sensex is going to hit 4000 level" We are not sure and I always wonder how do they predict it. I don't see them shorting Nifty and carrying them. May be they don't believe what they speak.

Smart money is loners money, where the majority is against
Dumb money is crowd's money, where the minority make use of

Feeling safer in crowd is fundamental human behavior. Unfortunately markets are not human.

One thing for sure, Speculators / Gamblers are always vulnerable and they coin the word of "Operators", though I could understand the word.

World's most arrogant traders who lost their lives in markets are smartest people of the world. They have great past records. At times well before they washed out, they might had been considered "Operators"
 
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uasish

Guest
#17
Whether there are 9 or 19 type of Fund/HNI etc etc,this knowledge is actually not going to help us (my views).Only thing which is going to help us is to get their Footprints EARLY in the charts.
Remember 1 thread was started to find out this in past,the basic premises we followed then is
"NO BODY IN THIS PLANET HOW BIG HE/SHE MAY BE CAN NOT BUY/SELL .......SECRETLY........ THEIR HAS TO BE SOME FOOT-PRINTS IN THE CHART"
Due to limitation of chart storage capacity in TJ most of my past charts HAD to be deleted.
Interestingly Jesse (our TJ's Gr8 Trader) has contributed with his charts Live then and we tried LONG ONLY in a Downtrend of Nifty.
http://www.traderji.com/technical-analysis/12248-insiders-operators-activity.html
 
#18
if people here had read vsa,this thread wud not hve been here in the first place...
why dont u all read tom williams & kartiks thread
Thanks 4v sir,

Thanks for reviewing the thread...again you certainly have vast knowledge and are guru in the subject...hats off....thanks for referring Williams..(Karthik sir's thread is already known to us)...so far in my own experience i was experiencing sudden surges and deeps in price/volume actions within matter of seconds and was not able to relate it to any sanity in the action.....may be i am still far from reading and understanding the market price/volume actions properly as you guys do (though what matters most for me and everyone is profiting trades rest just supplements)...you may be right......Williams is the reference to read instead wasting our time discussing and sharing such things here again and again...

thank you sir...shall close the thread soonest !

rgds, Nisha
 
U

uasish

Guest
#19
actuaryinmaking,

Do continue we may find some usefull to us ,but the focus is to find out how to identify it early than Who causes this & Why.

Asish
 
V

vvvv

Guest
#20
Thanks 4v sir,

Thanks for reviewing the thread...again you certainly have vast knowledge and are guru in the subject...hats off....thanks for referring Williams..(Karthik sir's thread is already known to us)...so far in my own experience i was experiencing sudden surges and deeps in price/volume actions within matter of seconds and was not able to relate it to any sanity in the action.....may be i am still far from reading and understanding the market price/volume actions properly as you guys do (though what matters most for me and everyone is profiting trades rest just supplements)...you may be right......Williams is the reference to read instead wasting our time discussing and sharing such things here again and again...

thank you sir...shall close the thread soonest !

rgds, Nisha
i didnt ask u to close ur thread...volume & price relations has been dealt very well by kartik who has made this thing interesting where as tom williams buk puts u to sleep as most of the time he has advertised for his software...
study kartiks vsa afl which is self explanatory....
the bottom line is making money & if vsa doesnt make money for u then this knowledge is useless.
 

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