Is this cheating?

hari09omkar · #11 24th November 2007, 01:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aroymkp

Put your execution code on nse site and cross check. You will get a confirmation if the trade was actually executed or not

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adheer

I recommend that you verify your trade on the NSE website.

http://www.nseindia.com/content/fo/fo_tradeverify.htm
http://www.nseindia.com/content/fo/fo_trdverifyhelp.htm

OHO.....aroymkp,u and Adheer gave me d clue!! I went to nse website and tried to fill the boxes there,like client code,trade no.,order no. etc.,and got that the trade no. and order no. both are 16 digit numbers.Actually the numbers are 8 digit,but with year month and date along with the number will make it a 16 digit number.Now when I put the trade no. of HCC(the culprit trade),which the broker e-mailed me with the contract note,the nse site was not taking it....why? Because it was giving a message to put the 16 digit trade number....my trade numbers are 14 digits in HCC trades,both for short and cover.But I had also shorted Kotak bank and longed Reliance Capital later in the day.In both these trades,the Trade numbers are 16 digits in both of them,and after putting them alongwith other details of the trades,I got the confirmation from nse site,that these trades exist.And I checked the yesterday's same type trade of hindalco,where I had been provided with a 14 digit Trade no.(after adding the year rmonth date).I checked not only that scrip,many of my yesterday's trades were not provided with 16 digit trade numbers,like Grasim,GDL,ABB......some were 14, some 15.So these trades can't be checked from nse site.But yesterday's Tata Motors and Titan Industries trades were provided with 16 digits Trade no.

And with the ease with which our boarder friends are saying these things are not out of the blue,it is obvious that not only me,but several others are also victims of these frauds.I am requesting to all of u who think this is normal,to check ur trades from nse site.....
Now,as I have known that my trades are not there in the database of nse,suggest me what to do next? Investor Grievance cell or what? Guys guide me please.

hari09omkar · #12 24th November 2007, 02:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by expertspeaks

I think this is very common. It seems to happen when some desparate traders go for market orders instead of limit orders.

Now look at this problem from other angle. How many times it has happened with you that you placed a buy order at market rate and the trade got executed at a much higher price than what you see on the screen.

But for any trade that is executed on the platform of National Stock Exchange,must be shown on the data they are providing us from the Neat terminal.May be it is not shown in ur broker's interface or software,from where u r trading online,like PIB of IndiaBulls,or speedtrade of Sharekhan....but it should be there in the data of the data vendors of NSE.I am not talking about the ODIN interfaces which people use,with DDE feed to the other appliances like Amibroker,or some data converters.I am not talking about the second hand feed like Viratech or stoxtrend.....I am talking about the 'registered data vendors' of NSE,like spidersoftware,esignal,reuters etc......the high quality zero second lag data.Remember,even Viratech is not a registered data vendor.
If u r using a first hand data then u should get all the trades....every spikes.....if it is a buy or a sell(pressure wise)......everything.Nothing is shied there....nothing missed....it can be missed in the broker's terminal....but not in these registered data vendors' data.....not a single trade should b missed.If this is missing in a NSE registered Data Vendors' data then it is a thing which should b there in d court of law,where NSE or the broker is the culprit....NSE for not providing the correct data to it's data vendors(they used to charge a hefty amount of about Rs.40 lakhs from each data vendor,I had read....)....If NSE is not culprit,then it is the broker who is the criminal,who is giving the clients non 16 digit Trade numbers.
Guys I am sure now with my experience,the trades which r not there in the data of ur registered data vendor(not of ur broker's trading screen or yahoo),are all frauds done with the joining hands with ur broker by some operators or whatever.Check those trades on the nse site and u will find no existance of them,as I couldn't.
For cash market trades: http://www.nseindia.com/content/equi...radeverify.htm
Hariom

supaTrade · #13 24th November 2007, 06:05 AM

Friends,

You need to understand the trade execution and data transmission mechanism. Please understand that the data is for "transmission" to broker has a gap of atleast 1-4 seconds. You can zoom in to NSE charts for that (gap of 4 seconds). Hence the trades happening between those times are not recorded in the charts. A trade can happen at 0.8 pico seconds and nobody will even know.

Eg. if a stock is at Rs 100, I see that 100 shares are available at my desired price of 100.05 and I put a market order for 100 shares. What happens is that another buyer may similiarly put a market order. Secondly the quantity displayed is not the actual size. It may be one tenth of the actual size (we have facility to reduce exposed quantity remember? i.e. actual size may be 1000). Hence order of both the buyers will get executed at real time and the price may go to 100.20 and come back to 100.05 due to momentary selling pressure and exposure. All this happens within 0.01 seconds.
However the data transmission interval is 0.5 seconds. Hence the transactions will not be visble on charts but will have been executed at price of 100.20.

These are called whipsaws. Is a whip visible before it hits you?

Have you observed the best 5 bid/ask data for sometime? You can clearly see this happening. The "quantity available" for bid/ask changes above and below the current market price (observe carefully) due to the reason mentioned above.

Please do not blame brokers for everything! Hari, changing brokers/data providers will not affect the execution. Your stop would have been hit even if you placed the order with some other broker. You are placing very tight stops, these are prone to whipsaws specially during these volatile market situations.

A broker will not risk his license and 2 crore deposit for gaining Rs. 1.5 from you. Hope this helps clear your doubt. Learn the art of placing stops.

newbee · #14 24th November 2007, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by supaTrade

..............

A broker will not risk his license and 2 crore deposit for gaining Rs. 1.5 from you. Hope this helps clear your doubt. Learn the art of placing stops.

Hello

I think the issue of tight stops is understood here and the Hari is definately not complaining about sour grapes.

The question is why are these trades not verifiable on NSE ? It does seem that there is some problem here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hari09omkar

16 digit trade number

....my trade numbers are 14 digits in HCC trades,both for short and cover.

I checked not only that scrip,many of my yesterday's trades were not provided with 16 digit trade numbers,like Grasim,GDL,ABB......some were 14, some 15.

So these trades can't be checked from nse site.

But yesterday's Tata Motors and Titan Industries trades were provided with 16 digits Trade no.

What to do next? Investor Grievance cell or what? Guys guide me please.

Hello Hari

I think as the first step you should demand the actual transaction codes (16 digits or lets say "NSE Format") from your broker for all your trades, so that you can verify them.

On the side note, are you ready to start trading with other broker, do you have the paperwork/setup in place, if not why not do that first before communicating with your broker. You need to consider the cost of not trading.

Thanks for sharing this, something to learn for all of us.

Thanks
nb

PS: are all the trades you are getting with 16 digit ID for delivery and the others intraday ? or no such distinction. . .

rajesh.sadhanala · #15 24th November 2007, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hari09omkar

OHO.....aroymkp,u and Adheer gave me d clue!! I went to nse website and tried to fill the boxes there,like client code,trade no.,order no. etc.,and got that the trade no. and order no. both are 16 digit numbers.Actually the numbers are 8 digit,but with year month and date along with the number will make it a 16 digit number.Now when I put the trade no. of HCC(the culprit trade),which the broker e-mailed me with the contract note,the nse site was not taking it....why? Because it was giving a message to put the 16 digit trade number....my trade numbers are 14 digits in HCC trades,both for short and cover.But I had also shorted Kotak bank and longed Reliance Capital later in the day.In both these trades,the Trade numbers are 16 digits in both of them,and after putting them alongwith other details of the trades,I got the confirmation from nse site,that these trades exist.And I checked the yesterday's same type trade of hindalco,where I had been provided with a 14 digit Trade no.(after adding the year rmonth date).I checked not only that scrip,many of my yesterday's trades were not provided with 16 digit trade numbers,like Grasim,GDL,ABB......some were 14, some 15.So these trades can't be checked from nse site.But yesterday's Tata Motors and Titan Industries trades were provided with 16 digits Trade no.

And with the ease with which our boarder friends are saying these things are not out of the blue,it is obvious that not only me,but several others are also victims of these frauds.I am requesting to all of u who think this is normal,to check ur trades from nse site.....
Now,as I have known that my trades are not there in the database of nse,suggest me what to do next? Investor Grievance cell or what? Guys guide me please.

I believe that you can send the contract note for verification to Investor cell to find out that 14 digit trade is an internal settlement. Its better to make it black and white rather than thinking. I would suggest you to go ahead and find it out..

Raj

rajesh.sadhanala · #16 24th November 2007, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by supaTrade

Friends,

You need to understand the trade execution and data transmission mechanism. Please understand that the data is for "transmission" to broker has a gap of atleast 1-4 seconds. You can zoom in to NSE charts for that (gap of 4 seconds). Hence the trades happening between those times are not recorded in the charts. A trade can happen at 0.8 pico seconds and nobody will even know.

Eg. if a stock is at Rs 100, I see that 100 shares are available at my desired price of 100.05 and I put a market order for 100 shares. What happens is that another buyer may similiarly put a market order. Secondly the quantity displayed is not the actual size. It may be one tenth of the actual size (we have facility to reduce exposed quantity remember? i.e. actual size may be 1000). Hence order of both the buyers will get executed at real time and the price may go to 100.20 and come back to 100.05 due to momentary selling pressure and exposure. All this happens within 0.01 seconds.
However the data transmission interval is 0.5 seconds. Hence the transactions will not be visble on charts but will have been executed at price of 100.20.

These are called whipsaws. Is a whip visible before it hits you?

Have you observed the best 5 bid/ask data for sometime? You can clearly see this happening. The "quantity available" for bid/ask changes above and below the current market price (observe carefully) due to the reason mentioned above.

Please do not blame brokers for everything! Hari, changing brokers/data providers will not affect the execution. Your stop would have been hit even if you placed the order with some other broker. You are placing very tight stops, these are prone to whipsaws specially during these volatile market situations.

A broker will not risk his license and 2 crore deposit for gaining Rs. 1.5 from you. Hope this helps clear your doubt. Learn the art of placing stops.

Come on friend, we are not talking about the art of stop loss.. Everyone is artistic enough to handle their trades..

Btw how do u know that a broker will not risk.. how can u be so sure.. gaining 1.5.. Did u understand the loss he made. He is one to find out, there can be numerous such things that can go unnoticed..

I believe that you are talking from the perspective of brokers

but we as common investors would like to find out black and white to get the detailed picture. I thought every trade that we took should be in the book of records in NSE, how it can go unnoticed. weird

I cannot understand that some trades are unnoticed in the charts especially highs and low.. is it a myth? however the fast the trade takes place the system should be smart enough to handle it otherwise whats the use of spending so much for technology.

jdm · #17 24th November 2007, 10:03 AM

ahh trade verification. it should solve the problem. but be ready to face the nuicense of trade verification.

make sure you put your clinet code in caps for eg - J and not j

in case the trade no. is not a seven digit no. in addition to the date stamp, prefix 0 in in the trade no. for eg - if your trade no. is 60749 then the correct trade no. will be 200711210060749, 20071121 being the date stamp and two zero's (in bold) added in addition.

hope this helps,
jdm.

hari09omkar · #18 24th November 2007, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdm

ahh trade verification. it should solve the problem. but be ready to face the nuicense of trade verification.

make sure you put your clinet code in caps for eg - J and not j

in case the trade no. is not a seven digit no. in addition to the date stamp, prefix 0 in in the trade no. for eg - if your trade no. is 60749 then the correct trade no. will be 200711210060749, 20071121 being the date stamp and two zero's (in bold) added in addition.

hope this helps,
jdm.

Ofcourse it helped!! With ur suggestion I found the trades existed there in nse!Thanks jdm for ur suggestion of adding zeros.
P.S Trade number is a 8 digit number,not 7,alongwith date stamp,it will be 16 digit.

hari09omkar · #19 24th November 2007, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newbee

PS: are all the trades you are getting with 16 digit ID for delivery and the others intraday ? or no such distinction. . .

I don't take delivery nb,last time I did was at June-July,I think.....the contract notes of that time may be there somewhere in the mail Inbox of hundred other mails.....so can't say it now.

paisewalla · #20 24th November 2007, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdm

ahh trade verification. it should solve the problem. but be ready to face the nuicense of trade verification.

make sure you put your clinet code in caps for eg - J and not j

in case the trade no. is not a seven digit no. in addition to the date stamp, prefix 0 in in the trade no. for eg - if your trade no. is 60749 then the correct trade no. will be 200711210060749, 20071121 being the date stamp and two zero's (in bold) added in addition.

hope this helps,
jdm.

Thanks this little suggestion was quiet helpful.