Food for Thought

Niranjanam

Well-Known Member
#41
rmike

You have reached the very same conclusions I have explained in post no 25
So far no alternatives. Let us see.
As a retail trader it is very difficult to take such entries. But do you think we retailers are providing liquidity here? Our stop loss and breakout orders simply feed them? Can we avoid this changing our entry and Stop loss tactics? These are the questions to be answered
 

Niranjanam

Well-Known Member
#42
The one in bold... do we really need to know the potential reversal levels for taking a trade? Yes, if we are the type that trades on the extremes. No, if we can make do with a smaller profit in between.

Personally, I would not try predicting levels for entry... I would take more trades with smaller profits.
You need not know the potential or probable reversal points particularly in higher time frames. But in day trading having some idea about these levels will boost your overall profits. Getting an entry 10 points early and getting 10 points more on exit can work wonders on our profitability
 
#43
These are different issues and ideas.Here I am sticking to my original question in post number 1.
Will you buy at the circled area? Who bought there? Who absorbed both stop loss selling and breakout selling? Why? Have you ever read about any method or system that favors buying at the circled area?
I have explained my reading about this and would like to know alternate explanations so that the discussion will move forward
Yes. These are Wykoff sprigs and Breakout failures. Retails trade after the spring on the way up.They do not create the spring.My question is who buys below the support and create the spring. Have you ever come across a system that recommends buying just below a support in forums and trading literature?

"The reason could be the same as any long tailed or wick bar - just the way the market works"
Then what is special about Wykoff springs? Is every long tailed wick bar a Spring?
Hello

Nice questions :)

Does everybody in the market only trade looking at these charts (whatever time frame) or
there are orders that are coming into the system based on other factors . . .
are 100% of these trading decisions in the market based on what the charts are doing . . . .

For e.g. If an index fund want/has to buy nifty basket, how would their brokers desk go about doing it?

Would they use F&O to reduce the impact cost on this huge one way buy order, front load/accumulate
the position in futures and then convert it to spot market by scaling in cash position and scaling out future position.

Or all the volume from investment people is so insignificant that only traders volume counts.

Thanks
 

Niranjanam

Well-Known Member
#44
BNF Trader

What is the very basic assumption of technical analysis ?
"Market discounts everything". People trade everything.
Fundamentals, Inside information,MA, Fibs, trend lines,Option positions,movement of the underlying ......etc etc
A Support in a chart is a price level where net order flow changes to buy mode.
Many people sell and many buy as per their own methods and analysis. But the point where buyers overpower sellers will appear as support in a chart and this point matters. S/R are markets own levels,not some calculated levels. Created by the collective wisdom of all the participants. That is why S/R are superior than any other complicated analysis
 

rmike

Well-Known Member
#45
As a retail trader it is very difficult to take such entries
Prima facie - Yes. But its not an absolutism. It would depend upon your approach. For e.g have a look at DLF cash data of 14 Aug. Almost the same exact manoeuvre played out from 113 levels. If viewing only a single short term timeframe, an entry near about that level would have been fairly 'foolhardy', considering the layers and layers of resistances to be negotiated upwards. However, the longer term timeframe did provide the clue that DLF was in a pullback from a nascent uptrend and that the 113 level was, in fact, a fair step upwards from the last support. I entered long at 113.25 (wouldn't try to hide the fact that it was not without misgivings :), notwithstanding all the rational analysis, as the market volatility did not engender much comfort). The trade did work out. Very well, in fact. BUT that's hardly the point!! The point is that it was simply an assessed anticipated wager on probabilities and not the absolute foreknowledge of the fact that a large entity's orders would be there in support of my trade. AND herein lies the difference!!! The large entity would enter such a trade knowing fully well (as much as 'fully well' can possibly be defined in such a dynamic scenario) the pending orders (read liquidity) environment, and thus the lay of the land!!!
But do you think we retailers are providing liquidity here? Our stop loss and breakout orders simply feed them?
Not only we, but anyone else on the wrong side of the trade whose market moving ability would be significantly weaker (monetarily as well as technologically in terms of tools at disposal) to directionally resist/ counter the large entity's market moving ability

And that's how the game is really played. A crafty entity with sufficient firepower can literally sculpt the market price volume landscape into the pattern of its desired trap!!!

Can we avoid this changing our entry and Stop loss tactics? These are the questions to be answered
If I may say so without any intended offense, you are looking at the problem from the wrong end of the philosophical telescope!!! :)

This is not about tactics, this is about strategy!!! It all basically comes back down to the fundamental definitions - From where it all began, in the first place

A support and resistance level can only said to be so when it does its job. A trend can only be qualified when price breaches a defined pivot and holds above/ below it. Ergo, it is not the levels or pivots but it is the manner in which price volume action unfolds in their proximity, which is important

Hence in your posted examples, unless the price action breaks through and then follows through until subsequent bar/ candle completion, the breakthrough is suspect and is vulnerable to trap exploitation!

Unless the price action retraces and then breaches the breakthrough bar's start point with subsequent follow through, the breakthrough failure cannot really be categorized!!!

Therefore, until the above mentioned 'unless' does not happen in either direction, are there really any compelling grounds for a sensible retail trader to enter the fray?!!!

If a trader follows the strategy of keeping his/ her powder dry until the resultant price volume action definitively tips the market's hand, he/ she would avoid being stoploss fodder for majority of the time, barring outliers. To be sure, he/ she would have to sacrifice leaving a bit of money on the table near the start of the move - But that amount would be made up in multiples by entering with more confidence, with a larger stake, for a (possible) longer run and by avoiding more false starts

P.S - In the long run, its all a matter of prospective perspective
 

Niranjanam

Well-Known Member
#46
rmike

1.Trading is always an " Assessed anticipated wager on probabilities". So called big money is also playing the same game. They too go wrong and exit on a loss. My read is not their entries are superior but Big money try to enter at liquidity pockets
2.This " Fire power ' is very relative.It all depends on whom they are trading against.Nobody is going to fade a move at every support and resistance. They will have their own conditions and reasons to do that.
3.
Therefore, until the above mentioned 'unless' does not happen in either direction, are there really any compelling grounds for a sensible retail trader to enter the fray?!!!
This " Unless" thing is seeking confirmation. It is possible to enter without confirmation and it gives superior returns on the long run. At least that is my experience. Please note that all my opinions are from a day trading perspective. This video inspired me to experiment
http://blog.opentrader.com/waiting-for-confirmation-before-entering-a-trade/
 
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rmike

Well-Known Member
#47
Trading is always an " Assessed anticipated wager on probabilities"
Am aware :)
Big money try to enter at liquidity pockets
Stripped down to its barest essentials, the game's all about exploiting available liquidity to one's advantage and removing it to force the opponent into a disadvantageous position
This " Fire power ' is very relative.It all depends on whom they are trading against
True, but an average retail trader's firepower ranks about the lowest in that scale of relativity. Hence prudence is always the advised watchword
Nobody is going to fade a move at every support and resistance. They will have their own conditions and reasons to do that
Markets are vast enough to have a mind boggling variety of people with a mind boggling variety of reasons for what they do or don't do :). Trying to guess at/ discern each and every one of those reasons is a monumental waste of time. I have yet to see a move proceed completely unopposed/ unhindered at any significant level
This " Unless" thing is seeking confirmation. It is possible to enter without confirmation and it gives superior returns on the long run. At least that is my experience. Please note that all my opinions are from a day trading perspective. This video inspired me to experiment......
Am pretty famous in the forums for my oft stated stance 'If it works for you, then go right ahead' :) and leave it at that. However, to do justice to this thread's premise, will leave some food for thought to ponder over

'Confirmation' in relation to price & volume landscape is the principal cornerstone of technical analysis

If faster confirmation is needed then one can drop down to a lower timeframe and apply the same tenets there

For absolute bare minimal time delay confirmatory requirement, one can carry out tape assessment. But IMO proceeding without confirmation leaves one with just 'hope' to clutch at for comfort

Had a look at the linked video. Many people propose many ideas. Even the same single trader will say/ believe in different things at different stages of his/ her trading journey. The correct way to analyze an idea on its own merit is to backtest it. Even then, the prevalent contextual market circumstances play a large contributory role towards that concept's success or failure. Without establishment of 'confirmatory' credentials (of the person putting forward the idea and of the idea itself), putting money at risk is akin to subscribing to a fad

Fads have notoriously short lived lives :). The bulk of the 'market courses' industry makes a living by replacing one fad with another :)

Regards,
 
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Niranjanam

Well-Known Member
#48
I quoted your own words. So I know you are aware so am.:)
the game's all about exploiting available liquidity to one's advantage and removing it to force the opponent into a disadvantageous position
I beg to differ sir. Then there is no need for any analysis.Any random entry can be made to work with money power.All the traders select a location where they believe they have an advantage Whether they are big, small, smart, dumb
True, but an average retail trader's firepower ranks about the lowest in that scale of relativity. Hence prudence is always the advised watchword
Prudence is always good. Retailer do not have firepower and most of them are wise enough to understand this fact.There is no need if he is hunting with the hounds
I have yet to see a move proceed completely unopposed/ unhindered at any significant level
You are talking about significant levels.Are you identifying them without any reasoning? Or are you classify them in hindsight?
Am pretty famous in the forums for my oft stated stance
I am relatively unknown in the forum because of my "SOFT" stand unlike your " OFT" stance.
'Confirmation' in relation to price & volume landscape is the principal cornerstone of technical analysis
You talk about confirmation now and it contradicts your trade mentioned in post no 45.I agree with your earlier stand
"the longer term timeframe did provide the clue that DLF was in a pullback from a nascent uptrend and that the 113 level was, in fact, a fair step upwards from the last support"
Yes Trend too is confirmation, Location is confirmation, Bias is confirmation, exhaustion is confirmation, Failure to continue is confirmation. No need to check lower time frames and read the tape all the time.
The correct way to analyze an idea on its own merit is to backtest it
You can accept or reject an idea. But you cant call it a fad and rule out the worthiness before back testing on your own.Regarding credentials, I dont think Ziad Misri and Awais Bokhari will ever need your certificate.
 

vijayanscbe

Well-Known Member
#49
BM trade big and they can be institutions, big funds or High net worth traders.Generally they are higher time frame traders and do not bother about ten or fifteen point moves like retail traders.They never chase price . They will place their limit orders and let the market come to them and fill their orders quietly at the right price.

Now think about the above situation. Everybody knows a lot of sell orders exists below the previous support. There exists a "Liquidity Pool" .Where else can BM hide their buy orders ? Most of the retailers will end up providing liquidity to BM.

If we are able to identify these " Liquidity Pools" we can avoid many false breakouts and premature stop outs.Slight changes we make in Entry technicks and stop placement will make marked improvements in overall profitability
Yes there is trading method,to find Probable areas where the big money(poor traders who cant fill their orders in single click like us :lol:) keep their unfilled orders.

I am giving their trading method concept in one line " Price will revisit the untested support/resitance ".

If you interested I will post the url, but anybody confirm is it a rules voilation to post other forums url?
 

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